[House Hearing, 109 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
HEARING ON THE CONDUCT OF ELECTIONS AND PROPOSALS FOR REFORM
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HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD IN MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN, OCTOBER 24, 2005
__________
Printed for the Use of the Committee on House Administration
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COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION
BOB NEY, Ohio, Chairman
VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan JUANITA MILLENDER-McDONALD,
JOHN L. MICA, Florida California
CANDICE MILLER, Michigan Ranking Minority Member
JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania
THOMAS M. REYNOLDS, New York ZOE LOFGREN, California
Professional Staff
Paul Vinovich, Staff Director
George Shevlin, Minority Staff Director
WISCONSIN: CONDUCT OF ELECTIONS AND PROPOSALS FOR REFORM
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MONDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2005
House of Representatives,
Committee on House Administration,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9 a.m., in the
Milwaukee Federal Building and Courthouse, 517 East Wisconsin
Avenue, Room 225, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Hon. Robert W. Ney
[chairman of the committee] Presiding.
Present: Representatives Ney, Ehlers, and Moore.
Also Present: Representative Green.
Staff Present: For Representative Ney: Paul Vinovich, Karen
Christian, Audrey Perry, Donald Zelaya, and Patrick Sweeney.
For Representative Ehlers: Ben Gielow.
For Representative Millender-McDonald: George Shevlin and
Thomas Hicks.
For Representative Moore: Winfield A. Boerckel, Jr.,
Kathleen Mulligan-Hansel, and Shirley Ellis.
Mr. Ney. The Committee will come to order and I would ask
that the first panelists, we have two members for the first
panel, please feel free to come up and join us.
The Committee is meeting here today in Milwaukee,
Wisconsin, to take a look back at how the 2004 election was
conducted in Wisconsin and hear about proposals for the reform.
Today's hearing follows previous hearings this Committee
has held in both Washington, DC and in my home state of Ohio,
Columbus, Ohio, on election issues.
With the January 1, 2006, deadline for compliance with the
Help America Vote Act, of which I was the main author along
with Carson and Steny Hoyer, who authored on the Democrat side
along with quite a lot of members to pass the Help America Vote
Act known as HAVA, we are working with different groups from
across the country to complete that act. The last phase of it
in 2006 will be kicking in on January 1.
While some in the media and others have brought a lot of
attention to the 2004 election cycle in my home state of Ohio,
as you know, Ohio was basically the most scrutinized state in
the nation. We went there to look at some of the discussions of
whether the Help America Vote Act worked correctly, what
happened in Ohio, and we found some other things applied to the
act and some didn't. Frankly, some are local issues and state
issues.
But a lot of attention was brought in the 2004 election in
my home state. There is substantial evidence of some voting
irregularities in Wisconsin in 2004 that were brought to our
attention. The attention given to Ohio's problems was curious
given the margin of victory was 10 times what it was in the
state of Wisconsin.
While some may not want to admit it, election problems are
not limited only to the states won by Republicans. They can
also occur in states won by Democrats. So, although Ohio is a
focus, we have several states across the nation that we can
look at and learn from.
During the course of this hearing, we hope to learn more
about what went wrong during the most recent election cycle and
how elections can be improved in Wisconsin and the United
States. By gaining a greater understanding of what happened, we
will be able to ensure the effective administration and
successful operation of Wisconsin elections and the United
States elections in the future.
Issues debated in Wisconsin are also being debated at the
national level, and it will be particularly constructive for
this Committee to learn what is happening here.
Today we have with us members of our Committee, the House
Administration Committee, and I would note and we will turn our
attention to a statement by our ranking member, Juanita
Millender-McDonald of California, and she passes her regrets
today that she could not be here due to a commitment that she
has. But she has a great interest in this issue as we are
responding and working with our ranking member, Congresswoman
Juanita Millender-McDonald.
Also a regular member of the Committee is Congressman Vern
Ehlers of Michigan to my right. Congressman Ehlers served on
the Committee for the past 10 years that I have been in the
House, and also, a member in her own right, Congresswoman Moore
filling in our for ranking member, Juanita Millender-McDonald.
Thank you for having us from your state.
And also, at the far end of the table, Congressman Green,
who had requested of me to have this hearing here in Wisconsin.
We thank him for asking us to be here in your state and for
initiating this hearing.
Witnesses, I want to clarify for the record because I had a
call from a newspaper out here, and there was a question about
witnesses. At one point in time there were witnesses submitted
to us by the minority, but then they requested witnesses, and
we put the witnesses here so I just wanted to clarify you can't
always believe what you read in the newspapers. But in this
case, I wanted to clarify that we accepted the witnesses so
there are witnesses by both the minority and majority, which is
the way it should be.
The two witnesses contacted by us were not able to attend.
The United States Department of Justice declined our invitation
citing ongoing investigations into the joint task force report,
and also Janice Mueller of the Legislative Audit Bureau was
invited, but respectfully declined. But we'll have other people
who can testify again for results and views of the election.
And again, with Congressman Green, we welcome him and thank
him for having us here in your state, in your great state. This
again is not the first of the hearings we have had and I
predict it won't be the last.
Our door is always open in Washington. Behind us are staff
of House Administration, majority, minority. We are always
willing as we work through HAVA and other bills to listen to
the concerns across the United States and input on elections on
how people think that it can be made better.
Full press makes it easier to vote and harder to cheat.
Everybody can agree on that.
Each hearing that we have helps to advance our
understanding of what problems exist in our election system and
how best to solve them. I look forward to hearing from all the
witnesses, and I will yield to Congresswoman Moore who is here
on behalf of our ranking member.
Before I do, just a technical piece of business, I would
like to advise people in the audience today that cellular
phones, pagers, and other electronic equipment should be
silenced from interrupting the proceedings.
Also, we welcome you in the audience that are here today.
This will be an official meeting of the Congressional Committee
of the U.S. House of Representatives House Administration
Committee, and so it is governed today by the rules of House of
Representatives, and these rules give the Committee Chair the
power to maintain order and decorum.
Pursuant to that, disruptive people in the audience who
interfere with the conduct of the Committee's business will be
removed. We ask that you not either boo or applaud depending on
the mood that betakes you if someone says something.
I don't know if I have the same type of control of members
as I do the audience. And with that, without objection I would
ask that both members who are not members of this Committee,
Congresswoman Moore and Congressman Green without objection be
allowed to participate as full members.
Ms. Moore. I absolutely want to thank Chairman Ney and
appreciate his courtesy for allowing me to sit with these
distinguished members of the House Administration Committee. As
you well know, you were one of the first members of congress
that I had the opportunity to meet when I was elected to
Congress and the House Administration Committee continues to be
a committee that really deals with matters and mostly
bipartisan manner, and I am happy to welcome you here to
Wisconsin, great place and a great lake.
I--I am going to ask Mr. Chairman that we submit Ranking
Member Juanita Millender-McDonald Congresswoman's opening
statement for the record. I will read just a small portion of
it.
Mr. Ney. Without objection.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. JUANITA MILLENDER-McDONALD, A
REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, AS
READ BY CONGRESSWOMAN GWEN MOORE
Ms. Moore. Thank you. I would like to--this is Ranking
Member Millender McDonald's opening statement in part. I would
like to thank the Chairman for holding this field hearing in
Milwaukee, Wisconsin. However due to a prior commitment which
cannot be rescheduled, I am unable to attend today's hearing. I
hope we'll continue to hear dialogue on how the conduct of
elections and review how the Help America Vote Act, HAVA, is
being implemented. Today the committee will hear testimony on
the conduct of elections in Wisconsin and proposals for reform.
And without objection, I would like to submit her testimony
for the record.
Mr. Ney. Without objection.
[The statement of Ms. Millender-McDonald follows:]
STATEMENT OF THE HON. GWEN MOORE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN
Ms. Moore. Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this
opportunity to read my own opening statements, and I want to
thank you again for that privilege. Being a freshman I never
expected to be in the position of the Ranking Member, but you
know, just can't hold a good woman down.
Mr. Ney. Ranking Member from California wanted me to tell
you just don't get too comfortable.
Ms. Moore. That feels good. Since the 2004 elections, a
number of task forces and special committees here in my state
have reviewed how the election was conducted around the state
and in Milwaukee.
These bodies included the legislative counsel special
committee on election law review which included county clerks,
representative of Milwaukee County election commission,
municipal clerks, election lawyers, and the executive director
of our state election board, Mr. Kevin Kennedy, who will be
testifying here today as well.
Again, we had the City of Milwaukee election task force
which looked closely at the conduct of the elections here in
Milwaukee, the chair of which Ms. Sharon Robinson who is also
in the audience and will testify this morning, and as you have
mentioned Chairman Ney, the legislative audit bureau evaluation
of voter registration issued this September, a very credible
nonpartisan body in our state.
Each of these bodies found what they believed to be the
problems that needed to be solved; mainly administrative errors
by poll workers and rules that need updating.
So they have made a host of recommendations which include
better training of poll workers, recommended changes to our
current state elections procedures, rules and systems and
perhaps most importantly the request for better funding for
state and local elections. Agencies without--which the first
two recommendations will never take place, the old mandate sort
of argument, Mr. Chairman.
You will find this call echoed in the written testimony of
many of our witnesses here today, I would submit on both sides.
After looking closely at what happened here in our state, none
of these state's local bodies recommended that every voter
without a government issued photo ID be turned away at the
polls. Perhaps this is because such a proposal would not solve
the difficulties we faced last November 2nd.
It seems to be a solution in search of a problem. And it
has the potential to disenfranchise the thousands of people,
the elderly, ethnic minority, and students.
Just to illustrate, I would like to submit for the record,
Mr. Chairman, a study by Professor John Peroserat (phonetic)
that outlines just how many people in this state and in
Milwaukee do not have a driver's licenses.
In this state over 177,000 of seniors, an estimated 98,247
Wisconsin residents age 35 through 64, and 47 percent of county
African American adults and 43 percent of Hispanic adults in
Milwaukee County do not have driver's licenses.
Why focus on--why not focus on real solutions that solve
our real difficulties with the elections here in Wisconsin and
Milwaukee? Some recommendations like the statewide voter
registration system is already in the process of being
constructed as we speak, and I understand it may go a long way
toward resolving a number of the discrepancies.
Other recommendations by this body will require passage of
laws through the state legislature.
But then let's go and pass the consensus recommendations
made by these experts who have looked closely at what went
wrong, and then fund the recommended changes adequately and
then see if it works.
What we should not do is jump the gun with a proposal that
does not address the problems identified by state and local
experts and at the cost of disenfranchising so many elderly
voters.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the courtesy,
and I would ask my testimony as well be submitted for the
record.
Mr. Ney. Thank you for the statement. Without objection,
the testimony and the additional materials will be submitted
for the record.
[The statement of Ms. Moore follows:]
Mr. Ney. Mr. Ehlers.
Mr. Ehlers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. VERNON J. EHLERS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Ehlers. I am pleased to take a little hop across the
lake to be in Milwaukee once again. I have not been here since
August. And it is a beautiful downtown area, beautiful art
museum. It is good to be back again.
I was somewhat surprised for the reason for the visit
because this has been a very well kept secret nationally that
the election last year was as flawed as it was. All the
attention focused on Ohio.
And clearly if Ohio had gone the other way, all the
attention would have focused on Wisconsin, and I think people
in the state would have been very chagrinned to have all their
faults exposed on national TV that occurred in Ohio and Florida
five years ago.
Clearly there is something wrong and I was surprised when
reviewing the record. I have been involved in elections for 30
years, I have served on this committee as long as I have been
in Congress, and we have had to deal with a lot of flawed
elections. The pattern is the same in almost every case.
What I have not heard is the word fraud, which is what
everyone really worries about. There are, of course, the honest
mistakes that are made by poll workers who may not be properly
trained, who only do the job twice a year and may have
forgotten the procedures. That certainly can be handled with
checklists, and I was surprised to find that there were not
sufficient written instructions available for poll workers.
That may be part of the problem.
But poll workers are very--in my experience, very fine
people, very dedicated people who come out to work in these
elections very long hours, and do a difficult job dealing with
the public that sometimes gets angry about waiting in line. So
I am not in any way criticizing the poll workers.
But clearly some things were wrong in the last election in
Wisconsin and they should be corrected.
I simply don't understand the argument that it is too
difficult for individuals to get an ID card. In Michigan, we
have had it for years. People ask for it. Simply because if
they didn't have a driver's license, they have trouble cashing
checks, they have trouble doing financial transactions,
etcetera, and so for years in Michigan, we have issued at
request state ID cards through the secretary of state's office
exactly the same process as getting the driver's license except
you don't take a test and you are not qualified to drive
afterwards.
I just think that the argument that it is too difficult for
people to do just does not hold water. And whether or not
Wisconsin decides to use an ID card for election purposes is
besides the point. There is certainly no reason not to have ID
cards available furnished by the state through the secretary of
state's office.
Michigan does it. A lot of other states do it upon request,
and there is no difficulty.
Some states, of course, do require the picture ID and I
think it is a good idea. That may not have been the problem
here, I don't know. But certainly it helps reduce fraud in
elections, and fraud is what you have to worry about.
Honest mistakes will always occur. Fraud is deliberate and
planned, and you have to take every step you can to make
certain that fraud does not occur. There is certainly evidence
of some fraud occurring, perhaps not enough to have overturned
any election, but there is certainly enough evidence that we
should be concerned about it. There has been enough so that the
people of Wisconsin should be concerned about it.
With that, I give back.
Mr. Ney. Thank you. The gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr.
Green.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. MARK GREEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN
Mr. Green. Thank you for giving me the chance to testify
this morning and thanks for coming to my home state.
I join Representative Moore in welcoming you to Wisconsin
and Milwaukee.
Mr. Chairman, this area is famous for many things, we are
the home of Harleys and beer and bratwurst and we are playing
some pretty good basketball and baseball as well these days.
Unfortunately we are also becoming known for election
irregularities. These problems go back several election cycles
breaking onto the national scene with the 2000 presidential
election and the widely reported cigarettes for votes program
and it carried over into the elections last fall.
Out-of-date voter lists, fake names, invalid addresses,
double, sometimes triple voting, ballots cast by convicted
felons whose rights have not yet been legally restored.
Unfortunately, the laundry list goes on and on.
Mr. Chairman, that's one reason why I made the request some
months ago that you came here today and I am so grateful that
you have.
In May, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported an
investigation that found almost 300 cases of felons voting
illegally, at least 100 cases of double voting, 1200 votes from
invalid addresses, and thousands more ballots cast than people
reported as voting.
A mutual friend and former colleague of all of ours, Mayor
Tom Barrett, even reported that the folks he bought his house
from six years ago were still on the voter rolls registered at
that home address.
Of course, these cases of irregularity are by no means
exclusive to Milwaukee or Wisconsin. We all know unfortunately
that they plague our election system in a number of places. But
even if Milwaukee or Wisconsin were the only place with
problems, it would still potentially hurt our democracy and
people's faith in our system.
When presidential elections come down to the outcome of one
or two states as we have experienced for two presidential
elections in a row, election problems don't just affect one
state, they can affect the entire country and the future course
of our country.
Wisconsin as you noted was very nearly the deciding state
last fall and even four years ago.
Last year on a percentage basis, the outcome was closer in
Wisconsin than any other state. Now, of course, there is no
silver bullet to fixing our election problems, but there are
measures that can make the process better, more reliable, and
less subject to the fraud that we have seen far too often.
Mr. Chairman, as this committee looks at ways to election
challenges and restore people's faith in our system, I would
ask that you consider legislation I offered some months ago and
introduced, the Vote Act. I believe it is a broadly written
response to many of the issues that you will hear about this
morning.
The Vote Act requires training for all poll workers and
establishes a federal grant program to help states meet those
training requirements. My bill also proposes changes to the
registration system, increasing accountability and setting
clear standards in all facets of voter registration.
During voter registration drives, my bill enhances in our
system by prohibiting felons from canvassing voters, and
requiring that paid canvassers disclose the source of their
pay.
The Vote Act also ensures that investigations on voting
complaints happens fast because we should not have to wait for
a long drawn out process.
In some ways the heart of the Vote Act is a photo ID
requiring all voters to present a valid photo ID before casting
a ballot. This requirement is one of the principal
recommendations of the bipartisan Carter-Baker Commission.
Requiring voters to show a government approved photo ID is
the best way for us to protect the fundamental American
principle of one man one vote. Every American has the sacred
right to cast their vote, but only once. You have to show an ID
to rent a movie at your local video store. In Wisconsin you
even need one to buy certain cold medicines. With so much at
stake in our elections, I don't think it is too much to require
one for voting.
I have listened carefully to concerns that a few have
raised that some folks might have trouble paying for or
obtaining an ID. The Vote Act specifically includes provisions
to try to address those concerns.
It authorizes, for example, states like Wisconsin to form a
photo ID requirement for those who can't obtain one because of
a disability or a physical incapacity.
Of course, voters are not the only folks affected by a
photo ID requirement. Those great folks that my colleague Vern
Ehlers referred to sit on the other side of the table during
the election, the poll workers, they will be affected, and my
bill makes their job easier because it establishes a simple
rule, voters must present a photograph ID.
The photograph ID requirement is by no means the answer to
all of our election problems--not by a long shot and I think
that's something we can all agree on.
For example, a key problem reported by the Milwaukee task
force was a lack of sufficient training among poll workers. The
Vote Act requires training for all poll workers, and again, it
establishes a grant program that helps states meet those
requirements.
The task force also found problems with voter registration.
20,000 registration cards were not processed in time by
November. My bill also proposes changes to the registration
system, increasing accountability, and setting clear standards
in all facets of voter registration.
The Vote Act contains provisions, that combat these and
allows us to go after organizations that do not follow the
standards originally outlined by HAVA which, as you noted, you
were the lead author of.
If someone recognizes fraud during say, a voter
registration drive, my bill ensures that investigations into
voting complaints start right away.
Every American deserves speedy and thorough investigation
into the problems arising from any election.
In summary, Mr. Chairman, our democracy can withstand a lot
of things, a loss of faith in our elections is not one of them.
We have to believe that whoever wins, Republican, Democrat,
conservative, liberal, your guy, my guy, he or she has won fair
and square. It is the only way that our leaders have the
democratic mandate they need to take on our nation's most
heated challenges. That's why the work of this committee is so
crucial to our future.
And I appreciate the committee's willingness in traveling
so far to look into the problems and all that has happened here
in Wisconsin.
If problems can arise in a state as great as Wisconsin and
a community as great as Milwaukee, they can happen anywhere.
I applaud your commitment to this issue. The American voter
and I appreciate the chance to address this committee. It means
a great deal to me. I yield back.
[The statement of Mr. Green follows:]
Mr. Ney. Again, I want to thank the Gentleman once again
for inviting us here. This is why we are here, so we appreciate
it.
We are going to go to our first panel. I want to explain,
there are time clocks. We are all four creatures of the
legislature, all four of us. We have all served. I was a state
Representative and state Senator so we have all served, and in
most of our legislatures, you don't have to have a clock.
Legislators kind of know when to wrap it up.
Congress is a lot different. That way we can control
things. We have a clock and it will go green and then it will
hit yellow and you have a minute to sum up and then it hits
red.
We just try to stay to the clock and the timing, so I will
give you a friendly reminder if it goes past the red. That way
we can get all three panels in. That's the procedure of the
House.
Again, welcome State Senator Joe Leibham and also State
Representative Pedro Colon. And I want to welcome both members
and we will start with the Senator first.
STATEMENT OF STATE SENATOR JOE LEIBHAM
Mr. Leibham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Committee. Welcome
to Wisconsin. It is a pleasure to welcome Senator Ney and
Congressman Ehlers to Wisconsin and to welcome home two of
Wisconsin's favorites: Congressman Green and Congressman Moore.
It is a pleasure to see you both.
Congresswoman Moore, I have not had a chance to visit with
you since our departure Senate, but it is good to see you
before us today.
Mr. Chairman and committee members, one key block in
foundation of our free country, our democracy here in America
is our election process and the ability of our citizens to make
a difference by casting a vote for our elected officials.
Unfortunately, I believe and I believe it is being that
this foundation has been softened if not eroded specifically
over the recent years due to legitimate concerns regarding
human administrative error and fraudulent voter activity here
in Wisconsin.
Each year we have witnessed increasing problems and with
the process here in Wisconsin while the faith of our voters
continues to erode. As Congressman Green indicated, we have had
problems in the 2000 elections, 2002 elections, and most
concerningly in the most recent 2004 election we have had a
strong concern of questionable voter activity and
administrative error.
Recently the legislature put together a special committee,
a joint legislative council committee that has been working to
review the problems of the 2004 election, and that committee
has been working in concert with some official investigations
that are taking place here in the state of Wisconsin.
We have the joint election fraud task force which is of the
U.S. Attorney, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the
Milwaukee District Attorney, and the Milwaukee Police
Department. That task force has been reviewing some of the
problems of our 2004 election here in Wisconsin, and they have
recently released some preliminary finding that show some very
concerning things.
Today the preliminary findings of that task force show that
we have more than 100 individual instances of suspected double
voting in the 2004 election, people voting in names of persons
who mostly likely did not vote or voting in names of
individuals that would be fake.
We have more than 200 felons who voted when they were not
eligible to do so. We have evidence of paid special deputy
registrars who falsely listed approximately 65 names in order
to receive compensation for those registrations, and to date,
the number of votes counted in the City of Milwaukee exceeds
the numbers of persons voting by more than 4500 individuals.
To date, 14 people have been charged in connection with the
overall investigation including 10 felons who have been
suspected of voting illegally while still on probation or
parole.
Now, while the majority of the media coverage here in
Wisconsin has been focused on the City of Milwaukee, our
special committee wanted to take a look at what is happening
across the state, we believe activity and administrative errors
can take place in any location, so we asked the legislative
audit bureau to conduct an audit of all of our election
municipalities across the state of Wisconsin.
Recently, as Congresswoman Moore indicated, that
legislative audit bureau report was brought forward and they
indicated a number of concerning problems as well.
Specifically, the audit found that 98 ineligible felons may
have voted in our 2004 election, two individuals who possibly
voted twice, one voter who may have voted under age, and four
absentee ballots that should not have been counted because the
voters who cast them had passed away prior to election day.
And these--this audit bureau information has brought
forward, obviously, a number of areas of administrative
functioning that could be changed in our election processes as
well.
But clearly these problems demonstrate, there needs to be
some corrections in Wisconsin's election laws and our committee
has sought about to do just that.
Within the next couple of weeks, people can move a
comprehensive package of election reform. That is going to do a
number of things to reform our election processes.
We worked with the City of Milwaukee, we worked with
governor's administration, and we hope to bring forward a
number of changes which would again not only administratively
improve our election laws, but also deal with the potential of
fraudulent activity.
In addition to this comprehensive reform package, the
legislature has been working on a photo ID requirement. I have
joined Representative Jeff Stone in authoring a photo ID
requirement here in the State of Wisconsin. That photo ID
requirement does provide flexibility for individuals who do
reside in nursing home facilities and assisted living
facilities and would provide a measure which would cover costs
for anybody who is unable to afford a photo ID.
Unfortunately, that legislation has been vetoed by our
governor three times, but we do plan to continue to move
forward to focus on photo ID through legislative and a possible
constitutional amendment.
I would encourage the committee members to work with us as
we explore our election processes here in the State of
Wisconsin. We want to fix our elections.
I would encourage you to endorse Congressman Green's Vote
Act. It includes many provisions that we have looked at and
plan to move forward here in the state of Wisconsin. And again,
collectively, we need to accomplish our goal which is to ensure
that that key foundation of our country, our democracy, the
right to vote is maintained and enhanced here in Wisconsin.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Committee Members.
Mr. Ney. Thank you, Senator. Representative.
[The statement of Mr. Leibham follows:]
STATEMENT OF STATE REPRESENTATIVE PEDRO COLON
Mr. Colon. Good morning. Thank you, Ms. Moore, Mr. Ehlers
and Mr. Green for allowing me to testify and giving me
opportunity to express my views on the issue requiring citizens
to present photo identification for voting.
As a person who runs for office and dedicates a great
amount of time to influencing issues and elections, I am
interested and committed to a fair election process for all.
However, it has been my experience and understanding voter
identification requirements will undermine the participation in
the electoral system of local and statewide elections and
ultimately lead to a government that is less representative and
less legitimate in the eyes of the public at large.
The election results in 2000 differed by about 11,000
votes. The election 2004, those election results differed by
about 5,000 votes.
Given what happened in Ohio and what happened in 2000 in
Florida and in Wisconsin, given the fact that the electorate
was definitely unsure as to who should govern as most of the
nation, it was greatly contested.
The local newspaper in the Milwaukee metro area, the
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, suspecting that Wisconsin would
become another Florida, covered the election process in the
2004 elections and concluded that various procedures and
process were not followed and that voter lists were woefully
disorganized and poorly kept.
This report did not cover the outlying areas of Milwaukee
or the outlying suburbs.
This in turn led to a partisan call and suspicion of voter
fraud in the Milwaukee election. Based on those partisan calls
for investigations, the local district attorney, the U.S.
Attorney's office, the Milwaukee police department, conducted
an investigation.
So far as of August 22nd they have not been able to find
any fraud in the allegations by essentially the Republican
party's call for an investigation into the fraud.
Of the total 105 cases found by the legislative audit
bureau to have constituted fraud, 98 were felons who were not
allowed to vote.
We all understand that those felons should not vote or
should not participate, but I don't know that a voter ID
requirement is going to dissuade or in any way, shape, or
reform not allow those felons to not vote in the future
elections.
According to Assistant U.S. Attorney Biskupic, there is
still no evidence of widespread conspiracy, end of quote. As of
found assorted clerical errors, other inconsistencies, but no
fraud.
At the same time the three investigative agencies have
found no widespread fraud in our elections, the University of
Milwaukee employment training institute has found 177,399
persons over the age of 65 and 98,247 of the ages between 35
and 65 simply do not possess a driver's license. Not
surprisingly, disproportionately it is the elderly and the poor
that do not have the driver's license.
In my zip code of the area in which I represent 58 percent
of the males do not have a driver's license and 36 percent of
the females simply do not have a driver's license.
The same study found that 3 percent of students residing in
the dormitories at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee campus
and Marquette University, only 3 percent were properly changing
their addresses on their driver's licenses.
I also believe that a photograph identification would
simply frustrate the course of the voting. In the Town of
Caledonia not long ago a clerk decided she was going to get a
jump start on all the lists that we talked about, and in the
process of that during an education referendum in that town,
the people became so frustrated at the requirement that they
simply went home and midmorning during that referendum it was
reported that she just simply stopped requiring the IDs. It was
too cumbersome.
Given the fact that there has been no widespread fraud
according to the Attorney General, U.S. Attorney General, and
given the fact that the people do not possess a driver's
license, I don't know requiring a ID is the best way to
maintain democracy and participation in the election process.
I do understand that there have been problems. However,
voter ID will not do anything to solve those problems.
Just this past April, Governor Doyle proposed voter reforms
that will address bureaucratic errors and called into question
the integrity of our election system. This reform include a
early voting option for all eligible voters, a mandatory
training for poll workers, uniform voter registration cards
requiring municipalities to develop an election day plan
designed to meet 30 minute maximum waiting time at the polls,
allow state wide uniform poll hours, and require maps of the
polling sites for voters.
It is my belief that we should be focussing on these types
of reforms rather than creating more barriers for one to cast a
vote on election day.
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to testify.
[The statement of Mr. Colon follows:]
Mr. Ney. I want to thank both members of the legislature
for their testimony. I have a few questions and we will turn to
my colleagues.
In the Help America Vote Act we had a provision for first
time registrants, that they could use an ID, the last four
digits of their social security number, a bank card, a bank
statement, or something else with their name on it.
The Congress at that time didn't tackle the ID issue it
didn't say; this is the ID you have to have. We started to go
down that path, and decided to deal with it on a generic
basis--so in federal elections, for the first time registrants,
there is some ID requirement.
Then there was the attestation that you have to be a
citizen of the United States to vote, and that non-citizens who
voted could be charged. So, some of this was left up to the
states.
There is still--and somebody will be testifying from the
Carter-Baker Commission today--talk in Washington of voter ID
and, the verified paper trail. My state has a paper trail
requirement. I am always asked about whether we should mandate
that nationally.
So there are still questions ahead. We are looking at
Georgia and their voter ID requirements.
Do you have any comments--as we look at Georgia's law and
what happened down there, part of it was struck down, Senator
and also Representative, Congressman, since you authored the
law that was vetoed several times, is there a difference
between the way you approached it and Georgia approached it.
The argument in Georgia was that you had to provide a piece
of paper and tell why you could not pay for an ID, and another
reason why it was struck down in Georgia with the voter ID was
because of lack of locations and access.
Any comments in the difference between the law here that
was voted on and in Georgia.
Mr. Leibham. Thank you. I will begin with the response.
Under the provision that Wisconsin's legislature is continuing
to review the three types of identification that we would
require individuals to show prior to voting in Wisconsin
election would be a state issued photo ID, state issued
driver's license which has a photo ID on it, or a military ID.
And we have written the legislation to ensure that there
are a number of exceptions or provisions in place for
individuals that may not be able to obtain. Specifically in the
area of seniors we have an exception in the legislation that
says if you reside in a nursing facility and an assisted living
facility or you are infirmed in your own home due to a
disability or inability to get to a polling location, you would
being exempt from a photo ID requirement.
In addition, under the Wisconsin legislation, we adopt the
provisional voting concept that is at the federal level and
that would say if you come in to a Wisconsin election on
election day and for one reason or another didn't obtain or
have the identification that was required, you could cast a
provisional ballot and have until 4:00 o'clock the following
day to come in and provide the appropriate identification.
I think that is one major difference in the Georgia law, in
allowing that provisional balloting to take place just in case
a person does forget the ID on election day.
Mr. Ney. Representative Colon.
Mr. Colon. My only comment would be that talking about a
voter ID reform assumes that there is voter fraud. I don't
think that has been found anywhere.
I truly believe that in this community in the City of
Milwaukee we have a good U.S. Attorney general, we have a
pretty good D.A. that does a good job and there are good
investigative agencies. There simply does not exist any
widespread voter fraud. Those are their words, not mine.
The fact is that Wisconsin has a very progressive tradition
of allowing and including people to vote. In the last election,
we had 75 percent of the eligible voter voted.
My view is simply that we can work on the polling sites, we
can work on some of the things that we need to work on and we
all understand that. I think that is a bipartisan
understanding.
But requiring an ID will disproportionally affect the
people that simply have the least.
I don't believe that we should make requirements that
simply we will leave a large proportion of the electorate, of
the eligible electorate to be essentially political refugees
during an election.
Mr. Ney. Any comments on the Help America Vote Act? First
time registrants by mail will have to put their last four
digits of social security, that would be under the federal
provision. Any thoughts on that or--not a photo ID, but it is--
--
Mr. Colon. That proposal has been being reviewed obviously
at the state level, we discussed that. The question in regard
to the social security requirement is basically the law says
that an individual could put down four numbers supposedly
supposed to be a social security number and then sign an
affidavit that supposed to be suggesting that you are who you
say you are, and again, if an individual is wanting to
participate in fraudulent activity, those aren't two hurdles
that are hard to overcome and that's the concern that Wisconsin
has with the social security requirement.
I should add, Mr. Chairman, that Wisconsin has probably
some of the most open election laws in the United States of
America in regard to the ability for any individual to come in
and vote until 8:00 p.m. On election day. We have same day
recommendation. We have provisional balloting opportunities.
And what we are trying to do in the legislative approach
and I appreciate your efforts as well maintain the openness
while ensuring that that openness is not being taken advantage
of. And to do that, you have to have checks and balances in
place so that you can ensure that the voting process, the very
open voting process is not being taken advantage of. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ney. As I am sure the members of the audience are
aware, when we passed the Help America Vote act, provisional
balloting was a key issue. That way, if you have any disputes
in states about the ID requirements, and someone says, ``Well,
this is not a proper ID''--people can still vote with a
provisional ballot. Provisional balloting stops the
disenfranchisement of individuals. We had conversation in Ohio
about the intention of provisional balloting.
I think the provisional balloting is a large key to HAVA.
As states go down the voter ID or identification path, people
could still use the provisional ballot if they are disputed at
the polling place, they can still vote and have their ballot
decided later.
Do you have any questions?
Ms. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank this panel for
their very, very astute testimony. I think I would like to
question Representative Colon first.
Am I going to have five minutes for both witnesses or just
one.
Mr. Ney. Both.
Ms. Moore. Both of them together.
Mr. Ney. Yes.
Ms. Moore. Start the clock over again, okay.
I am going to have questions for both of you and you know
that I am not that good on not talking long, you know that.
Mr. Leibham. We miss you.
Ms. Moore. Here is the question. This Commission I believe
that you served on, Senator Leibham, came with some excellent
recommendations for reforming the elections process, and I
guess I just really don't get it.
I can't connect the dots between how requiring a photograph
ID would stop some of the mistakes, errors, even the 98 felons
that have been investigated, I believe one of those people have
been convicted.
And I am wondering about--and while protecting the vote is
extremely important, I am wondering how you are reacting to the
John Peroserat study that we entered into the record and I
believe that Representative Colon referred to.
You talk about the one voter that may have been under age
in your testimony, the four dead people who didn't die on
purpose I am sure, but they cast their ballots before they died
on election day.
And I am wondering how--how requiring a photograph ID which
will have the impact of disfranchising over a quarter of a
million, over a quarter of a million eligible voters in the
state and very clearly this breaks out demographically to have
a great impact on minorities.
You take Wisconsin white men, for example, only 17 percent
of them don't have a valid driver's license versus a Hispanic
man 46 percent of whom don't have a driver's license, an
African woman, 49 percent of them don't have a valid driver's
license versus 17 percent of white women.
When you break it down by age group, you are going to find
that this discriminates against students, younger people, white
men 18 to 24, 36 percent of them don't have a valid driver's
license, but a Hispanic man, 57 percent of them don't.
So I am wondering when we start looking at reforming the
process, two questions for both of you.
Number 1, how will a valid driver's license stop someone--a
felon can get a driver's license. How will that stop a felon
from voting number 1, and number 2, in terms of the scale of
things, how would stopping--what is your response to the over
quarter of a million people, particularly people of color and
young people and the elderly, the adverse impact it will have
on them were we to enact the voter ID requirement.
Mr. Colon. I think I will be brief. I think that Wisconsin
has a progressive tradition. The courts interpret them a vote
that is cast has to be proven not meeting the requirements
beyond a reasonable doubt. The same standard for voters who do
a criminal conviction. That's how convinced we are in the state
that people should participate.
Now, having said that, I think you inevitably engage in the
slippery scope that first you are requiring people to show the
IDs and then you are requiring social security number and then
require the conviction record and then require their INS status
and then you continue on the slippery slope where we end up in
the Dominican Republic where a police officer can stop you and
require whatever it is that they want from you, and if you
don't have that national ID, at least it was when I was a kid
when I went on vacation there with my parents, you get thrown
in jail. That is not the country I want to live in.
I want to live in a state that allows me to vote and allows
me to vote fairly, it runs fairly.
I am happy to report that from my district in the
neighborhood of south side, it is predominantly run by honest
hard working people. That is a fact.
Ms. Moore. Before your time runs out, I want to ask you
this question. There can you--can you share with us a little
bit of wisdom about the folks who are unbanked. We have been
constantly getting examples here of why can't people have IDs.
You need them for your bank accounts, you need them to go
to Blockbuster Video. You need an ID to get on an airplane.
Can you explain to us why many people in the Hispanic
community are not middle class because it sounds to me like we
are putting an asset test on people, people who don't have
cars.
Can you please respond to me whether there is any
relationship between having valid driver's licenses and being
middle class.
Mr. Colon. Again, briefly my experience is in my district
people have two jobs, sometimes three jobs, they live on a
month-to-month basis to make a living.
The economy is largely on a cash basis. You have temporary
jobs that don't provide any sort of economic stability.
All of these things lead to movements from apartment to
apartment to apartment, and the fact is the more requirements
that you impose on people to cast their vote which is their
right, which is the premise of our whole constitution and our
form of government, I think it would be wrong to disenfranchise
those people.
I don't believe that these people are dishonest. I don't
believe that the people in my district are any--have a tendency
to fraudulent activity any more than any other district.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is a cause and effect
between a voter ID and the fact that we would somehow diminish
voter fraud. The fact is that we have not found voter fraud.
The fact is that all the mistakes that have been found
including felons voting, addresses not existing are largely due
to the power structure; that is, the people that run the
elections.
We are the ones responsible for delivering the electoral
system, and we have failed to do so. People have acted the most
reasonable way they can. They have waited in lines, they have
gotten to the tune of 75 percent of eligible voting, they are
doing their job.
I don't understand why it is that we are requiring them to
now overcome some burden that we have created as a people who
run elections and actually make our living at it.
Mr. Ney. Time has expired.
Ms. Moore. He is a state legislator.
Mr. Ney. The Senator may like to answer this.
Mr. Leibham. If I may briefly, thank you Congresswoman, for
the question.
First, under the legislation that the state of Wisconsin is
considering, we have amended recently on a bipartisan effort to
deal with the felon issue, and specific language in the bill
that Governor Doyle has even indicated that he would support
specifically that would inform an individual who is in felony
status that they don't have the right to vote, and that's how
we are handling that situation.
Number 2, in regard to the administrative functioning of
our lesson and how it may help. I would encourage, and I am
sure you talked as well, but talk with the poll workers.
This past I talked with three ladies who work at polling
locations in Sheboygan and Manitowoc, elderly women who are
saying that photo IDs would help them to more administratively
function the election with ease.
When you see a name on an ID tied to a photo, it is easier
to be able to move people through the voting process, election
process. I have not met a poll worker at least in my district
that has indicated that by asking individuals to show a photo
ID, it would be a greater burden or challenge in the election
process.
Please remember as well that under the photo ID legislation
that we are considering, we have no costs for a individual to
receive an ID, so there is not an economic concern that should
be legitimate.
Ms. Moore. Excuse me, Senator, but there is because you
have to have a birth certificate in order to get a photo ID,
and if you are born in Mississippi, I have done this, you have
to send for it, you have to pay 12 bucks for the birth
certificate. If you have got until 4:00 p.m. When you cast the
provisional ballot, somehow you have to get the register of
deeds in Mississippi to get it to you and Fed Ex to get there.
There is a cost of having a photo ID.
So I--I am asking you when we--we don't want to
disenfranchise a single person.
The question to you was the scale. If there is a person who
when we have penalties and I am for enforcing the law, if
someone fraudulently votes and they are not eligible to vote, I
am for prosecuting them; but what I am saying is why would we
prosecute 275,000 people who are not middle class, they don't
get on airplanes, they don't need a photo ID. They are unbanked
so they don't need a photo ID.
They are students, they live in the dorm, they are poor,
they move three times a year so even if they had a photo ID, so
even if they have a photo ID, it may not have the correct
address on it.
And I am asking you how you rationalize disenfranchising
over a quarter of million people when there is no connection
between having a photo ID and having the right to vote.
Why can't--what is wrong with our system now where you
can--register in advance, but if you go on election day, you
can go there and show your utility bill, current utility bill,
you can have your mother corroborate that you turned 18 two
months ago and sign an affidavit under penalty of law that you
are who you say you are, what--how do you rationalize that.
Mr. Ney. We are way over time, but since you have been
posed a question, please answer, and then we will move to Mr.
Ehlers.
Mr. Leibham. Actually I want to encourage the committee
like we have done in Wisconsin as you are reviewing any photo
ID proposal across the nation that you seek information from
the states in regard to other areas in which they require a
photo ID.
If you look at Wisconsin, we require a photo ID for a
individual who receives food stamps. To apply for the food
stamp program you have to have a state issued photo ID.
If you are a student who is wanting to take the ACT or SAT,
you have to have a photo ID in Wisconsin to be able to
participate in the program.
As Congressman Green indicated, just recently to purchase
cough medicine in Wisconsin, Governor Doyle signed a law that
requires a photo ID for an individual to purchase cough
medicine.
And we have other provisions that require individuals of
all economic stature and all background to have state IDs for
state law.
I think it is rational to suggest in an election process in
which we are simply trying to confirm the identify of an
individual who already under law has to register, we are simply
asking them to identify themselves with a photo ID. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ney. Okay.
Mr. Ehlers. There appears to be a little disagreement on
this issue.
Now, let me ask you, in Wisconsin, when someone registers
to vote, do they receive a card indicating that they are
registered to vote and giving the polling place where they are
supposed to vote, giving the address?
Mr. Leibham. State law does not require that, but some
communities do have processes in which they send out voter
cards to individuals. It is typically in more smaller towns
that continue that practice and that is one area we are looking
at in the special committees.
For instance, through the requirement of HAVA for the voter
registration to bring consistency how that preregistration and
preelection day activity takes place.
Mr. Ehlers. I am surprised it is a not a state requirement.
I would certainly suggest it is a first step.
I find the arguments against a photo ID not very
convincing.
It is not that--as I say, Michigan has a state issued ID,
it is not a voter ID, but it is a state issued ID. And millions
of people get those because they find that very useful to have,
and it does not, in my experience in Michigan, seem to impose
any burden whatsoever in terms of getting that information and
that card.
So I am really puzzled by the opposition. It makes me
suspect that the opposition is fairly political, and I am not
here to raise partisan planes at all, but it seems strange that
the Democrats seem to be opposed to it.
I heard your comment that there is not wide-spread fraud,
and I read the account, and I would agree the evidence does not
appear that there is wide-spread fraud in Wisconsin.
The same cannot be said for some of your neighbors not too
far to the south, but there is always the potential there.
And the point of voter laws is to try to ensure the
integrity of the election.
When you have elections decided by 11,000 votes out of an
entire state, it doesn't take very much fraud or error to
change the result, and it seems to me the goal should be to try
to use every means possible.
The controversy here seems to settle in voter ID, picture
ID I should say, but that's only part of it. And Representative
Colon, you made that comment, you have all of these other
things you should do.
I agree you should do those. That doesn't mean you
shouldn't have a picture ID as well, if that is becoming a
problem in this state.
Very few states have it, but more and more are getting it
because there is more and more fraud across the country
occurring, and it doesn't have to be widespread. It can be just
individuals doing this and not, not distinguishing by wide
spread I mean organized fraud where a group, a party, or a set
of individuals decides to organize fraud.
There is not too much of that in America although there is
some, but certainly there is a lot of individual fraud going on
and that's what we want to stop as well.
In order to speed things along since we have to move along,
Mr. Chairman, I won't ask any questions at this point.
Mr. Ney. Thank you. One note before I move on to Mr. Green.
I was asking the staff, and Mr. Ehlers and I were involved in
looking at election over eight years ago.
If I recall, 720 people that voted were not citizens of the
United States.
Mr. Ehlers. We suspect far more, but it was very----
Mr. Ney. Very close congressional race, there were quite a
few people, but there were quite a few people that were not
citizens of the United States that voted in the congressional
election.
And so we have always historically being on this Committee,
viewed that if you had a way to--if you knew that person was a
citizen or not, call me old fashioned, but I think you ought to
be a citizen of the United States to vote in elections.
We went through that. I wanted to make it as a side note.
It was a considerable amount of people, quite a close election
that had no form of ID, and there they went, they registered,
and they were not citizens.
So we have a little bit of history on the issue.
Mr. Ehlers. Mr. Chairman, as you recall, I chaired the
contested election committee. Pretty close to the worst
experience of my life.
And I was dismayed to find the extent--really was an eye
opener to the extent of the fraud, the state's errors,
etcetera, and shows we have a long way to go on election law.
Ms. Moore. Mr. Chairman, I am old fashioned, too. I could
not agree with you more that I don't want noncitizens to vote.
The fact is that noncitizens can get driver's licenses.
Mr. Ehlers. Well, I am against that, too.
Mr. Ney. Mr. Green.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I did my questions,
something I wanted to clear up.
A couple of times we have heard the statement that
investigators have not found fraud in Wisconsin. That's simply
not true. In fact I am looking right here at the public
statement that said they did find clear evidence of fraud in
the November elections and the analysis was none the less it
was unlikely that there would be much prosecution because, not
my words here, city records are so sloppy, it will be difficult
to establish cases that will stand up in court, but they did
say they had clear evidence of fraud.
The other thing I wanted to mention, I want to make it
clear we are obviously in Milwaukee for a variety of reasons,
but the whole issue of photo ID is one that is important
statewide including in Milwaukee.
The public polls that we have seen show very strong support
across more than two to one and majority support right here in
the City of Milwaukee, so sometimes these issues get cast and
at least in our state and Milwaukee versus the state, that is
simply not true.
The question I have though is Representative Colon, as you
know the Carter-Baker Commission called for one of it's
principal recommendations of photo ID. It says, I am quoting,
we are recommending a photo ID system for voters designed to
increase registration.
And then President Carter, obviously not a right wing
zealot, and senior member of the commission, he says, ``I
personally had at the beginning some reservations about the
issue. This will be, I think, a move forward in getting more
people to vote. It would not restrict people from voting.
It will uniformly apply throughout the country. It will be
nondiscriminatory.''
Why do you think that President Carter and the Carter-Baker
Commission support a photo ID requirement for voting.
Mr. Colon. I have no idea. Actually I can only tell you
what happened in Wisconsin, and in Wisconsin of all that fraud
that is claimed to have happened, one conviction has been
obtained, only one.
Mr. Green. As I said, the prosecutor said that it would be
difficult because of sloppy records, but they said they found
clear evidence of fraud.
Mr. Colon. If you find fraud, you should prosecute it. It's
just that simple.
Mr. Green. Even if you don't have evidence.
Mr. Colon. Well, if you don't have evidence, you don't have
fraud.
Mr. Ney. I would please note to the audience as I have
before, do not show applause nor booing. Thank you.
Mr. Green. Again, I think it is important to remember
because you said a couple of times that there was no fraud, and
again, you praised both our U.S. Attorney and our Milwaukee
County D.A. And they do say there is evidence of fraud, they
said there was clear evidence of fraud.
Mr. Colon. Simply bring the cases forward----
Mr. Green. But just to clarify, there was clear evidence of
fraud, so it is inaccurate to say that there was not fraud.
Mr. Colon. There is obviously two disagreements.
There is obviously a disagreement about whether there was
fraud. I happen to think that one conviction does not lead to
widespread fraud. I happen to believe Attorney--U.S. Attorney
General Steven Biskupic on the issue because he has looked, he
has the power, and he is in fact the one that we rely on to
bring those cases along----
Mr. Green. He was the one I was citing here. He was the one
who said that there was fraud.
Mr. Colon. I understand. I am saying if there is evidence
of it, we certainly would like to know and there is evidence of
it, we have all of these courts right in this building ready to
go.
If he has evidence, he should bring the cases forward.
If he can't prove it, then maybe an issue as to the quality
of the lawyering or something else, but it is not the issue.
The evidence is what rules a courtroom. We all understand
that.
Now secondly, on the issue of the Carter Commission, there
has been sent--I can't speak for the Carter Commission, I don't
know it, I know what occurred through the media and so forth,
but ultimately, this is Wisconsin and in Wisconsin we allow
people to vote.
And if we are going to error on the side of something, we
are going to error on the side of democracy.
If we are going to error on the side of a few mistakes
which is all that has been found, we are going to allow people
to participate.
The fact is that tradition goes back to the beginning of
our state, and it will continue. I have no doubt.
We have a agreement, but I think our agreement as
Congressman Ehlers indicated, it is much narrower. I agree with
Senator Leibham that there are many things we can do to provide
a better election system. I just don't believe the punishment
to be further barriers to those who actually participate in
good faith.
By and large, all of those people who participate legally
and with the faith that those systems that are run by the good
poll workers in our neighborhood are run for the benefit of
good election results. I think we agree on that.
Mr. Green. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired.
Mr. Ney. I want to thank both the Senator and
Representative for your time today and the members of the
Committee. Thank you.
We will move on to panel 2. Panel 2 will consist of Kevin
Kennedy, Executive Director of the Wisconsin State Elections
Board; Sharon Robinson, Director of the Milwaukee Department of
Administration; Susan Edman, Executive Director of the
Milwaukee Election Commission; and Kathy Nickolaus, Waukesha
County clerk. Thank you. I appreciate all of you being here,
and we will start with testimony of Mr. Kennedy.
STATEMENT OF KEVIN J. KENNEDY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
WISCONSIN STATE ELECTIONS BOARD
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you, Chairman Ney, Congressman Ehlers,
Congresswoman Moore and Congressman Green. I really appreciate
the opportunity to be here.
I have provided additional copies of my testimony as
requested, and what I would like to talk about a little bit is
Wisconsin's unique situation in administering elections, just
in case I do not have it I have two maps of the state of
Wisconsin which I would offer for the committee, they are part
of my testimony on page 18.
Mr. Ney. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
Mr. Kennedy. These maps illustrate some of the uniqueness
in Wisconsin in terms of complying with the Help America Vote
Act in terms of voter registration in the State of Wisconsin
and the type of voting in the state of Wisconsin.
The Packer colored map, green and yellow, is voter
registration. Wisconsin currently does not have voter
registration. Under 5,000 as part of the Help America Vote Act,
we have enacted legislation that all of our municipalities will
have it. In some of the small municipalities in yellow, when
you walk in to vote, people know you or they recognize you, and
that has been our protection. We can't ask for identification
for those individuals.
Starting in 2006, every voter will be required to be
registered to vote. Wisconsin also has election day
registration preferred, and in those municipalities which is
about three quarters of our voting age population, we find that
20 percent of the people who come to the polls either
registered for the first time or make some change to their
registration such as changing their name or their address,
highly mobile population.
Those individuals do provide identification, that
identification is consistent with the requirements of the Help
America Vote Act for first time voters.
We have provisional voting but only for first time voting
currently in Wisconsin. In the 2004 election, 374 individuals
were required to cast provisional ballots out of the three
million votes that were cast in the state of Wisconsin. That is
because we have election day registration, those individuals
who did not have that identification be registered at the
polling place in most cases. That was something we worked very
hard for as part of the Help America Vote Act was to provide
for that.
That provisional voting is usually quite frankly a fail-
safe catch up for the type of errors that creep in through the
voter registration process.
I think the thing that I have to emphasis the most, besides
the uniqueness in terms, illustrated by the two maps, is that
the election process is really about people.
In Wisconsin, we have 2,000 elected officials, we run our
elections at the municipal level. That's why the maps are coded
at the municipal level.
The clerks are the ones that equip, hire, and train the
poll workers. Most--that includes 1850 municipal clerks, and 72
county clerks, deputies, and individuals in our office.
We have about 20,000 poll workers at our November election,
working on that and they deal with about three million voters
in the last election.
All of these people are affected by the various legislative
proposals, and it is generally through those areas where I
think we find a lot of the concerns.
As Wisconsin's chief election officer, to tell you I
welcome the level of scrutiny that we have had to endure since
2000. I think it helps illustrate some of the issues that not
only our office but the county clerks and municipal clerks have
to wrestle with.
There are a lot of challenges because of all the people
that are processed in terms of that.
The second map illustrates the challenges we have in
dealing with the Help America Vote Act requirement in terms of
equipping polling places for individuals with disability.
We are a paper driven state. Some of those municipalities
have 70 voters, 150 voters, 200 voters, and it is a real
challenge to bring in something other than paper ballots.
On that map, I forgot the color, I think it is green is the
paper ballot coding, and you will see how much territory even
though it is about 12 percent of the voters in our state.
Let me conclude my testimony, I will certainly welcome
comments, but I want to say how much I did appreciate the
scrutiny that is going on because it is only going to improve
our process, but to reemphasis as we moved forward the election
process including voter registration and voting equipment is
about people, voters, local election officials and their
participation in the electoral process. We will always have to
balance the constitutionally protected right for eligible
citizens to participate in the electoral process with the
public policy that ensures participants have the utmost
integrity of that that requires significant balancing. It
requires commitment of government resources that has not been
available in the past despite the infrastructure that HAVA has
made which has allowed us to put together statewide voter
registration system, to allow us to put accessible voting
equipment in.
It is not enough in terms of the commitment that we have
and continue to go. Thank you very much.
[The statement of Mr. Kennedy follows:]
Mr. Ney. Thank you. Ms. Robinson. I went down the order.
STATEMENT OF SHARON ROBINSON, CHAIR OF CITY OF MILWAUKEE
ELECTION TASK FORCE
Ms. Robinson. Congressman Ney, Congresswoman Moore, and
committee members, I am honored to be here today in my capacity
as chair of the City of Milwaukee election task force and also
remark on the topic of election reform.
The protection of voting rights is perhaps the most
fundamental of all rights guaranteed by the U.S. Democratic
form of government and implicit in that right is the right to
have one's vote count and have an election process that
guarantees the cleanest and fairest elections possible.
Both the 2000 and 2004 exposed the many challenges facing
our election system. Major cities across America experienced
unusually high voter turnouts, record numbers of absentee
voters, and questions surrounding how the November 2004
election was conducted.
Like many other cities located in key battleground states,
Milwaukee will continue to be a spotlight of national attention
in presidential and gubernatorial years. I can assure you that
Milwaukee's Mayor and our city workers are committed to
improving our election system while honoring the great
traditions of our state.
We should all take pride in knowing that Wisconsin has been
one of the most progressive states in eliminating barriers to
voting and maximizing voter participation.
In 2004, Wisconsin had the second highest voter turnout in
the country, second to Minnesota. South Carolina on the other
hand which has the most restrictive voting laws on the books,
experienced the lowest turnout in the entire country.
Recognizing the needs to modernize Milwaukee's election
system, Mayor Barrett formed the Milwaukee--City of Milwaukee
Election Task Force. The Mayor charged the task force with
proposing specific, practical changes to improve the city's
election process in ways that would guarantee efficient
elections and restore pride and confidence in our system.
As a result of our comprehensive review, the task force
found imperfections with the city's election system and
mistakes that occurred in the November, 2004, that were
unacceptable. Most of the problems can be attributable to the
sheer size of the election as well as staffing and training
issues.
Under the capable leadership of election commission
executive director Susan Edman, the city has already taken
steps to document standard operating procedures, enhance
training, and recruit more poll workers.
Poll workers do their jobs admirably and often under very
difficult situations; however, the task force found tremendous
potential for improvement in the recruitment, training, and
development of poll workers.
When conducting a post-election review of the November 2004
election, the election commission found inspector statements
that were not filled out accurately and completely. In
addition, many election poll list vote totals were not
reconciled to the machine recorded vote totals at the end of
election day.
As a result of these inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and
incomplete poll books and inspector statements, there were
discrepancies between the total number of voters recorded and
the total number of ballots cast.
These discrepancies have been the subject of intense media
scrutiny, but contentions of fraud have been overblown.
The task force has not found any evidence to conclude that
these mistakes were based on fraud or the willful neglect of
any poll worker.
This find is consistent with the preliminary findings of
the joint task force led by the U.S. Attorneys Office. A recent
investigation by the Wisconsin legislative audit bureau also
reflects similar findings. Last fall, over 200 felons did cast
votes illegally. There was virtually nothing the city could
have done to stop these citizens from voting who, by the way,
ironically used their own names.
However, a major task force recommendation would discourage
felons from casting votes by requiring municipalities to
include a clear statement on voter registration cards
explaining that felons on paper are prohibited from voting.
Another key recommendation calls for tighter controls for
deputy registrars such as tracking their activity and banning
pay based on a quota system.
Perhaps the most important message I want to convey today
is the need to infuse more resources into elections.
If we really want to improve the way we conduct elections
in this state, the solution is that management and adequate
funds so cities don't have to continue trying to conduct
elections on the cheap. Without adequate funding, we will get
what we pay for.
As we continue to explore the topic of election
administration in Wisconsin and ponder proposals for reform, I
hope that everyone in this room will walk away with a spirit of
bipartisan cooperation and a real willingness to work together
to implement meaningful election reforms.
We all owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the brave men
and women who gave their lives for the cause of civil rights
and the right to vote in this country.
So let's approach our work with honor and in recognition of
their tremendous sacrifice. Thank you for the opportunity to
testify.
[The statement of Ms. Robinson follows:]
Mr. Ney. Thank you. Ms. Edman.
STATEMENT OF SUSAN M. EDMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF CITY OF
MILWAUKEE ELECTION COMMISSION
Ms. Edman. Good morning Chairman Ney, Congresswoman Moore,
and committee members, as the newly appointed executive
director of the City of Milwaukee's election commission, I
would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak this
morning on election reform. I believe it is highly advantageous
to the process of initiating effective changes to Wisconsin
election systems to include those individuals with direct
involvement in elections.
I believe that it is these individuals that have the
greatest capacity to determine what election administrative
changes will improve the integrity and accuracy of future
elections as well as maintain Wisconsin's long-standing
commitment to fair, open, and accessible elections.
As election reform leaders, our work must be thoughtful,
appropriate, and warranted. It cannot be impulsive,
superficial, politically motivated, or enacted to distill a
false sense of public confidence.
At this time there is unprecedented activity in the state
of Wisconsin and across the country relative to election
reform.
I am confident that administrative systems are being
assessed in Wisconsin municipalities to ensure that systemic
problem experienced in the 2004 election will not reoccur in
future elections. Additionally, the bipartisan legislative
committee on election reform has recently completed a two-year
review of Wisconsin election laws and are in the process of
compiling a legislative package that fully addressed the
state's statutes that are outdated and applicable, and in some
instances a hindrance to clean elections.
Completion of this work coupled with a comprehensive reform
package will further Wisconsin's position as a state with
clean, fair elections.
I am respectfully asking the members of this committee,
Wisconsin legislators, and Governor Doyle to support the
thorough and thoughtful work of the Milwaukee Election Task
Force, the special committee on election law and the
legislative council on election reform.
I ask for your support in allowing for the full
implementation of the work of these three groups before
proposing additional legislation.
Allow me to share with you a recent statistic regarding
voter participation in the City of Milwaukee. There are an
estimated 430,000 eligible voters in the City of Milwaukee.
Of that 430,000, 85 percent are registered with the
election commission to vote. That number is significant and
represents a voter dedication and parties participation far
higher than many municipalities throughout the country.
Allegations of voter fraud during the 2004 presidential
election warranted a comprehensive review of the city's
election system as well as state statutes regarding elections.
The city is sincerely grateful to Sharon Robinson, the
chair of the Election Task Force, as well as the other city
government and community leaders that conducted that assessment
and completed a plan of action that is appropriate and one that
will result in effective election reform measures.
You already heard Ms. Robinson speak to the opportunities
for improvement that were identified through the work of the
Milwaukee Election Task Force. I am here to assure you that the
Milwaukee Election Commission has already made significant
progress in implementing these recommendations.
We have begun the process of purging the Milwaukee's
registered voters of over 40,000 inactive voters to ensure
reliable poll lists.
We have promoted a system for processing absentee ballots
that will allow the highest level of quality assurance.
We have restructured the staff of the Milwaukee Election
Commission to establish greater levels of efficiency
effectiveness, and accountability.
We have contributed to the full implementation of the
statewide voter registration system that will greatly reduce
voter registration database issues including duplicate
registration, deceased voters, and voters that moved outside of
the municipalities.
We have facilitated several poll worker feedback sessions
in order to ensure that all--to establish standardized best
practices for operating a polling places.
We have partnered with community groups and persons with
disabilities in order to ensure that all eligible voters,
regardless of a disability, can vote independently and
privately in the City of Milwaukee.
We have initiated a split shift for poll workers to
alleviate poll worker fatigue on busy election days.
We have fully revised our poll worker training program to
expand the training from one hour to two hours and made
participation in training mandatory. We are about to launch a
poll worker recruitment campaign. Our hope is to recruit
another 250 workers by spring election and another 500
additional poll workers prior to the fall election.
Mr. Ney. I would note your time has expired. If you would
like you may summarize and enter the rest for the record.
Ms. Robinson. I would like to point out that the City of
Milwaukee remains fiscally dedicated to clean, accurate, and
accessible local elections at a time when significant
reductions to the City's budget have become necessary.
It is equally important to note that while Wisconsin
legislators are exploring election reform legislation, there
has not been a meaningful discussion of appropriating state or
federal funds to support improving election systems.
As we move ahead on election reform, we must ensure that
our responses to the problems identified in the 2004
presidential election are again appropriate and warranted.
Thank you.
Mr. Ney. Thank you very much.
[The statement of Ms. Edman follows:]
Mr. Ney. The last witness is Ms. Nickolaus.
STATEMENT OF KATHY NICKOLAUS, WAUKESHA COUNTY CLERK
Ms. Nickolaus. Chairman Ney, members of the committee on
House Administration, thank you for the opportunity to appear
before you today to speak about election administration in
Wisconsin and possible proposals for reform.
As the county clerk, one of my jobs is to protect and
promote public trust and confidence by administering accurate
and fair elections. I ask that you consider some changes and
additions to current laws that would give me the tools to
better serve my constituency as well as ensure fair elections.
I will cover them in the next five minutes.
As you heard, the Carter-Baker Commission in September made
some recommendations in a report on federal election reform,
recommendation 2.5.1 was to require voters to use an ID to
ensure the person on the poll list is the person voting.
You also heard mentioned that our state legislature has
passed three bills requiring photo ID to ensure that integrity,
but our Governor has vetoed them.
In a poll conducted at the beginning of this month by the
Wisconsin policy research institute, Wisconsin residence were
asked their opinions on photo ID requirement. Statewide the
results were 69 percent in favor. My county, 93 percent
surveyed favored the requirement, and in areas of the state
such as the City of Milwaukee and the City of Madison, 60
percent were reported in favor. This is not a partisan issue.
During the trial in Milwaukee for a person accused of
voting twice, the jury was hung. The district attorney from
Waukesha County has been quoted as saying I know a person voted
in Waukesha County and voted once in Milwaukee, but because I
don't have written documentation of it, I can't move on it.
His investigation investigators were unable to prosecute
other cases of people voting twice in the 2004 presidential
election because there was not adequate proof according to the
D.A.
Requiring a photo ID such as proposed by Congressman
Green's Vote Act would rectify these situations. As an election
administrator, it is difficult to answer the questions of a
voter who calls after going to vote and found that someone has
voted for her or someone notices his deceased wife has marked--
was marked as having voted.
Also included in the Carter-Baker Commission report was a
remark, and I quote, ``uniformity and procedures of voter
registration identification is essential to guarantee the free
exercise of the vote by all U.S. Residents.''
In Wisconsin we have same day registration with the ability
to have someone vouch for residency. Let's take a look at a
possible scenario. It is the presidential race and Wisconsin
has same day registration with a residency requirement of 10
days.
If someone would like to change that outcome of the
election by swinging Wisconsin votes towards one candidate,
they could have people come from out of state, live in
Wisconsin for 10 days, maybe work on the campaign.
This gives them the ability to vote in Wisconsin instead of
the state in which they came from. They don't need
documentation because they can ask the person that they are
staying with to vouch for them.
State auditor Jan Mueller wrote that ``current voter
registration practices are not sufficient to ensure the
accuracy of voter registration lists used by poll workers.''
This is not a small number of people who register the same
day on election. In Milwaukee alone in the city there were
77,000 people who voted at the polls and of the 77,000, 4,900
of them could not be verified as valid.
As a state by the Commission--as stated by the Commission's
report, uniformity is essential. Residency for voting should be
the same length of time no matter what state you live in and
you should not have the ability to have someone vouch for you.
We know that voter verified paper audit trails were not
required by the Help America Vote Act, but are being considered
as a requirement in many states. As part of the legislative
election reform committee, we discuss the inconsistencies in
our state between counties.
According to selection line dot org, 15 states require the
recount to be done on the paper ballot or on a paper trail
instead of the electronic machines, but two states require a
recount to be done on the election machines.
Either way, there are possibilities for failure again, but
again the consistency throughout the United States would help
electorate stop questioning why one state's election process is
different from another.
In the legislative reform committee, we discuss training
our poll workers. Currently only our chief inspector is
required to go through training provided by the state. We
believe that all poll workers should require some training.
When I speak to people, other election administrators
outside of the state, their requirements for poll workers are
either lacking like ours or required many hours of training.
A federal requirement would ensure excellence and
competence in maintaining the highest level of accuracy of
elections across the nation.
Mr. Ney. Your time has expired so if you like you may
summarize.
Ms. Nickolaus. In closing, I want to reiterate that the
problems we see in Wisconsin and elsewhere are urgent ones,
they demand speedy and decisive action. Free and fair elections
are a bedrock component of American democracy. Any diminishment
of integrity our electoral process damages our democracy,
undermines our people's faith in their government, and
threatens our nation as a whole.
Thank you for coming to our part of the country.
Mr. Ney. Thank you very much.
[The statement of Ms. Nickolaus follows:]
Mr. Ney. In drafting the Help America Vote Act, we were
very careful to do a few things. One, the EAC that was
established which is two and two, Democratic, Republican has no
rule-making ability. I did not want to create the EPA of
elections where you get a new rule and regulation every week
and then they say. ``Well, the authors of the bill, did you
mean this, no? Well we are going to do that any way.'' I did
not want the federal bureaucracy to run your elections here in
Milwaukee or in Utah or Ohio or anywhere in the nation. So we
kind of had a balance between trying to do things we thought
were standard without federalizing the elections.
I was a large believer and still believe today that the
blind have the right to vote in secrecy. The Help America Vote
Act, for the first time in people's lives, allows the blind to
vote in secrecy.
Now, you do have some complications and that's what I
wanted to ask you when you got the paper ballots. As of 2006,
how do you intend to have the one precinct equipped for people
who have a form of a disability.
Mr. Kennedy. We have set aside $18 million of our Help
America Vote Act Title II money which is roughly $6,000 for
each polling place in the state to acquire a piece of equipment
that will enable an individual with disabilities to vote
privately and independently. The challenge of that is of course
we put the equipment in there, the poll workers will have to be
trained on that, the municipality will be responsible for the
programming and the cost may be shared.
The ongoing costs are going to be a real challenge and some
of those places we are dealing with individuals who are
complete municipality where this equipment--anyone may be able
to use it. There may be no one who really benefits from it from
that advantage and that's the push back that I get from the
locals is we have not had to deal with this.
We explain the law to them, we are prepared to deal with
it. We tested the equipment. We have got two vendors that
finally got through our process in Wisconsin. We don't just let
any vendor walk in and sell, they have to go through the
process of qualifying standards, voluntary standards that have
been established in the new ones.
We have gone through two vendors now that we will be
recommending to the board for that and will be prepared. My
sense is it that for the April elections, every polling place
will be in the position to have that. We have put a condition
on that though that we will not give that $6,000 for
reimbursement unless the polling place is physically accessible
and we have surveyed all of the polling places, of the 2800
polling places, a 1,000 that may still need some changes.
Mr. Ney. That was the one requirement we had. When it came
to a person who had some form of a disability, we use the blind
as an example, but there are height issues, there is access,
wheelchairs, there is a lot of different considerations.
But the one requirement was that one polling place--some
people argue. ``Well, a small area where we only have 300
voters, we have no one that is blind''--well, you might have
somebody that moves into the community that is blind or has
some type of access issues, or is in a wheelchair. That was the
one thing we did.
Now, this is the first federal money in the history of the
United States through the Help America Vote Act, Partisan Hoyer
and I pushed quite heavily and worked with the leader Dick
Gephardt and now Leader Pelosi and Speaker Hastert and we
reached the three billion mark. We have about $900 million more
so this is not an unfunded mandate.
We are pretty intent on trying to get that money from the
federal government, but we always do work with groups across
the country, advocacy groups, that would never pay a dime for
that. We do--what we do that.
But I was curious to see how you would meet that one
requirement.
I just want to ask very quickly what is your reaction to
the joint task force finding that there were 4500 more ballots
cast than individuals recorded as having voted in the city of
Milwaukee?
Mr. Kennedy. If I could address that first I would like
that opportunity.
I have been working as Wisconsin's chief election officer
for 23 years, and I think the disparity quite frankly is poll
workers' record keeping issues. There is no question that we
are able to document certain individuals should not have been
able to vote, but that is not the record keeping issue. The
felons voting more than once.
But in Milwaukee we have situations where we issue a number
as the voter comes in, gives their name on that, but we also
for election day registration are processing them through a
separate line. We have noticed poll workers are sometimes not
sharing that numbering system, we have noticed that absentee
ballots which we process, a number may not be assigned to that,
and we had a unique situation in this election in Milwaukee
because the voter registration system that they use was
antiquated, the staff was not prepared, and this is going to
change. I am--I have every confidence.
Mr. Ney. So what you are saying is the 4500 were live human
beings? They were not recorded, is that what you are saying?
Mr. Kennedy. Not properly recorded and did not go through
the process we have in state law to reconcile that and the
county did not go through the secondary review process.
There is no reason why the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
should have discovered this two weeks after the election. It
should have been caught at the polling place on election night.
It should have been corrected there. We have processes for
doing that or should have been caught in the Milwaukee County
board of election commissioner's office.
Mr. Ney. I will listen to anyone else who has something to
say on this issue, I think your answer: obviously it is 4,500
extra votes being dumped in there--that you don't know what
happened. And the study the newspaper released caused quite a
debate.
What you are saying is that it was ``record'' keeping at
the local level, they did vote; it was just not marked down.
But the thing that I noted, too, preliminary findings of
joint task force possible election fraud and this is an
interesting thing for the future based on the investigation to
date, the task force has found wide-spread record keeping
failures and separate areas of voter fraud which could have
been the one felon.
This is an interesting statement on the task force. These
findings impact each other. Simply put, it is hard to prove a
bank embezzlement if the bank cannot tell how much money was
there in the first place. Without accurate records, the task
force will have difficulty proving criminal conduct beyond a
reasonable doubt in a court of law. With that caveat, the task
force has made the following specific determinations.
So what they are saying is fraud, but you don't know if--in
the first place you don't have the same page information to
work off of.
Mr. Kennedy. I think you are right. That record keeping
would have illustrated the problems we had were limited to a
handful of felons, a handful of individuals who the process
quite frankly can't catch at this point without narrow
investigation, and it is one of our responsibility of election
officials right up to our office to make sure that the record
keeping is adhered to because that is what is designed to
install confidence for the public and the courts.
Mr. Ney. Would Milwaukee election officials like to comment
on the future of this.
Ms. Robinson. Sure. I want to point out to the members of
this committee that I served as the executive director of the
Election Committee on an interim basis and during my tenure
there, I actually after the spring election worked side by side
with my counterpart at the county, Janice Dunn, and we
scrutinized very closely the spring election and in fact we
found similar problems that occurred in the spring election
with discrepancies in voter counts versus ballots cast even
though that was a very small election.
And what I want to point out is what a consistent problem
among the wards was the voter pink slip. We found that poll
workers forgot to tear off the pink slip so therefore they used
the same voter number twice.
Mr. Ney. I am sorry. What is----
Ms. Robinson. There is a pink slip that says number 1. So
in many instances even though this was an extremely small
election, I had like for instance a polling site that 202
voters where a poll worker used the duplicate voting number
twice. They forgot to tear that pink slip off.
So basically what I am trying to point out is if you look
at the spring election, we were careful in calling these poll
workers, looking at every single vote, every single polling
site, but there was discrepancies and imbalances.
So it did demonstrate the need that we have some serious
problems with poll worker training.
But if you look at the discrepancies that occurred in the
spring of 2004 versus November and looked at the proportions,
similar error rates like the error rates actually were not that
high when you looked at the--the total number of votes, so the
error rates were way less than like 2 or 3 percent, but
basically I am just trying to say that we have problems with
poll worker training and we definitely are committed to
enhancing our training and also want to point out that I am--I
abhor any instance of fraud. I think it is horrible. But the
real problems that occurred in November, 2004, and in the
spring election again a lot of it was attributed to
administrative error and errors that definitely need to be
fixed.
Mr. Ney. I want to keep on time. We have another panel, so
I just wanted to ask one brief question.
With the Help America Vote Act, we gave flexibility and I
think it is important for training poll workers, and poll
workers are great background. Carson Hoyer started a college
program, I started a high school program to get young people
involved in the election process to help at the polls.
How did you distribute that, or is HAVA monies for voter
education being concluded? Each state does it a little bit
differently. Were you able to do that so you have the
flexibility to use the money for poll worker education.
Mr. Kennedy. Basically the state is controlling all of the
money, almost all of the money under the Help America Vote Act.
As I said, we set aside 18 million for the statewide voter--
accessible voting equipment. The bulk of the money was set
aside for the statewide voter registration system because saw
on the map, we are building from the ground up with 1500
municipalities that did not have voter registration or any kind
of system.
The state has taken the lead in terms of training election
officials. Our state legislature actually requires the chief
election inspector to go through a series of training, they set
aside small amount of money with the Help America Vote Act,
money came through. We took that over as a result of that.
Prior to the 2004 election 8,000 poll workers and municipal
and deputy clerks were trained through the basic training
program. They are in the process. And we have an administrative
rule that requires the chief election inspector, the person in
charge of the polling place, to have six hours of training.
Mr. Ney. And the state--the Help America Vote Act goes
through the state and it went down through to poll workers.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, the state provides the training for the
poll workers.
Mr. Ney. So the state is paying for education.
Mr. Kennedy. The state is paying for it.
Mr. Ney. California did it in a unique way; there were
problems with it.
Mr. Kennedy. That's right. Training the state.
Mr. Ney. Training other people. So each state, I have not--
this is one issue I have not heard a lot of complaints except
after the California controversy how they used the money. We
never told the states how to use the money but we surely
intended it for poll worker education and voter education, so
you have things to put up at the polls to tell people their
rights, provisional balloting for example.
We would have people that are told, ``Oh, no, you already
voted.'' This happened in Ohio. And the young man was smart
enough to say, ``I don't care. I want that ballot. Give it to
me.''
And he got the ballot and showed there was improper voting
in his name. That's also part of the voting education process
of the voter knowing their rights and being educated.
So through HAVA, those monies have come down to the local--
--
Mr. Kennedy. Money has not been distributed to the locals.
It has been handled by the state.
Mr. Ney. Do you have access to it?
Mr. Kennedy. The locals do not have access to it in that
sense. The state takes the lead on that, and that was done
quite frankly, we have so many municipalities. To develop a
formula how to treat it, you end up--we get a bigger bang for
the buck if the state is handling it.
Mr. Ney. That is the last question, if you have a response.
Ms. Robinson. No.
Mr. Ney. Thank you.
Ms. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is very informative.
This has been a great panel. The worker bees panel, people who
get into the nuts and bolts of election.
It is nice to see all of you again. Mr. Kennedy and Ms.
Robinson, Edman and Nickolaus.
I guess the first thing that I guess I want to sort of just
congratulate all of you for really getting down to the nitty-
gritty, participating on all the task force and really trying
to come up with good solutions.
I want to commend you for taking ownership for the
administrative errors and problems and not try to figure out
who to blame it on, but really confirming that there just are
some problems with elections, administration, and I am hearing
you as a member of Congress that you need the adequate
resources in order to be able to do your jobs and to do them
well.
I was really happy to hear Mr. Kennedy in particular clear
up the mysterious 7,000, 4600, 4900 votes that we hear about.
They were largely due to administrative errors.
Ms. Robinson in talking about how the poll workers did not
place the appropriate numbers on there, but these were actual
people who actually had a right to vote.
But there were administrative errors.
I guess my question for all of the panel is--are a couple
of things.
First of all, how would--it doesn't seem that anyone except
for Ms. Nickolaus thinks having a voter ID would have cleared
up any of the--the problems that we faced on election day, that
having a voter ID would have solved those problems.
So I am asking you all again what your reaction is to the
requirement for having a voter ID, and I want it in the context
of the numbers of people, particularly in the City of
Milwaukee, who would be disenfranchised were it for such a
requirement.
I have mentioned earlier those data that indicates that
there is a huge disparity between people of color, young
people, the elderly, who have photo IDs and those who do not.
And also I want to ask you all about absentee ballots.
About a quarter of the problems that were found were related to
absentee balloting, and how would photo IDs and the requirement
for photo IDs fit in with absentee ballot.
I can have you all go down the line. First question is all
of these administrative errors that were found, would photo IDs
have kept these errors from occurring.
Ms. Robinson. Well, I--again, I was the chair of the City
of Milwaukee Election task force and the administrative errors
that we talked about with regard to discrepancies and vote
total versus ballots cast, a photo ID would not have addressed
that problem. Again, that was an administrative error problem.
Even if you look at the issue with the felons that voted
illegally, again, I think anyone who voted illegally you need
to investigate that, but those people used their name.
So I am not even convinced that a photo ID would have
helped in that regard because photo IDs don't even note that a
individual is a felon anyway.
Ms. Moore. Or if they are a citizen or if they moved six
times.
Ms. Robinson. Right.
Ms. Moore. The last time they voted.
Ms. Robinson. How many people might be disenfranchised in
Milwaukee, we did have discussions among the task force about
the whole issue of disenfranchisement and Milwaukee is probably
a lot different than some of the districts of some of the other
members of the congressional panel so there is a concern in
Milwaukee about disenfranchising voters.
For instance, Senator Colon actually pointed out some
statistics about how many Hispanics don't have photo IDs which
was really high, how many African-Americans, how many women, so
my concern is again that I think fraud is horrible, but I don't
necessarily think it is wise to institute a policy whereby
basically you are punishing the innocent for the crimes of the
guilty, and there were not many guilty people that we found to
have committed fraud in Milwaukee on election day.
Ms. Moore. Ms. Nickolaus, with your permission.
Ms. Nickolaus. When I was referring to voter ID being able
to help, I was not stating that all of the problems that we had
in Wisconsin elections would be rectified by showing a photo
ID. I was stating that there are some that would be rectified.
The idea that somebody is voting in your place, somebody
that voted for someone deceased. It is also--a voter ID or
photo ID would also help a poll worker that when some of them
are having trouble hearing, if I say Nickolaus, they might be
looking down the list and pick up Nicholas in a different area.
Because we spell our names a little differently, looking at the
photo ID, they can--they have something in front of them to
match the name up. That's another area that would help.
Ms. Moore. So I am Mary Smith and there are zillions of
Mary Smiths. I present you with a photo ID. Does that tell you
anything? When you consider the scale, the hundreds the 275,000
people that could be disenfranchised in the state, do you think
it is worth it for that poll worker to have Mary Smith's
driver's license in front of you which doesn't tell you whether
she is a citizen, doesn't tell you whether she has voted in her
home state of Ohio, doesn't tell you anything except that she
has passed the driver's test.
Ms. Nickolaus. I think what it will help to be able to
prosecute. I quoted the district attorney stating that if--if a
person were to vote in one place and vote in another place
because they didn't have to prove who they were, it could have
been two different people who voted for me saying that----
Ms. Moore. I don't want to be argumentative, but I want to
point out that we--we would be able to prosecute one person
more efficiently, but on balance, there is 275,000 people in
the state that don't have a photo ID, and that's the point I am
trying to make. Thank you very much.
Mr. Ney. Time has expired. Mr. Ehlers.
Mr. Ehlers. Thank you Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Edman. I would like to respond to the Congresswoman
Moore if I could.
Mr. Ney. We have exceeded the time, so respond, but stop
Mr. Ehlers' time with the clock.
Ms. Edman. I recently retired from the Milwaukee Police
Department after twenty-eight years. We have seven police
districts, three shifts at each district. Each shift does
things differently, so we have 21 ways of doing things.
They do things differently because of personalities, people
like to do things differently.
In the City of Milwaukee we have 202 polling sites. If you
divide that into the 4,900 votes that we are concerned about,
that's 24 votes per polling site.
Some of our poll workers have very strong personalities and
they like to do things their way. That created a lot of the
problems that we had in the 2004 election. In future elections,
they will have to follow the procedures in place because we
won't accept anything less than that.
Mr. Ney. Mr. Ehlers.
Mr. Ehlers. Perhaps you should hire ex-military people who
know how to follow rules.
Just a quick question for Mr. Kennedy. Did I understand you
correctly that in yellow areas, there is no voter registration
of any sort.
Mr. Kennedy. That's correct. Since the state was created in
1848, there has been no voter registration in those
municipalities. They are all populations of less than 5,000.
Very similar to North Dakota. You walk into the polling place,
they either know you or recognize you.
If they don't, they may ask questions, and they are
required to ask for identification if they don't.
Mr. Ehlers. I am surprised to hear that in a state as
advanced as Wisconsin.
Mr. Kennedy. I think that's one of the unique factors as we
implement voter registration and talk about the uniformity
issues identified through the various studies.
Mr. Ehlers. Ms. Robinson, your comment about civil rights,
we have all worked hard for and certainly one of the civil
rights is every citizen has the right to vote, but the other
part that we worry about in the Congress is not only that every
single person has the right to vote but to have the assurance
that no one else is voting improperly or illegally, which is a
civil right as well, and that their vote not be diluted by
that.
And I just wanted to get that on the record because I think
that is equally important.
I am still troubled, a lot has been made by the voter ID.
Wisconsin has to sort that out. If you are really worried about
verifying or the difficulty getting people to get voter ID, it
would be simple to set up now that we have electronic cameras,
set them up in the voting place and take a picture of everyone
who comes in to vote along with the address that they have
given and so forth. At least you have a record then. If you
don't want to do it before then.
You can certainly have a record and also use that to create
a voter ID card which you can hand to people on the way out.
I happen to be a physicist. I could design and build that
system very simply and very cheaply if you really want to.
That doesn't take care of absentees, but it solves the
problems that we have been talking about here.
I am not as worried about that, and I am not as worried
about the felons voting. I am very worried about the 7,000
votes greater than the number of people who were signed in as
voting and another 1,300 or some people who have created
similar problem.
I am worried about the number of cards that were not mailed
which the law says have to be mailed after someone has
registered same day registration, and cards were filled out
with addresses that don't even exist, 1300 of them. That's a
lot.
I am worried about the return cards that were sent back
with no such address. 3,600. Don't worry about the felons,
that's only 98 or whatever. 3,600 people voted and gave an
address which doesn't exist, and I am worried about the fact
that 3,600 were not turned over to the D.A.
I am also worried that many of those turned over to the
D.A. have not been acted upon. I understand it is an
overwhelming task, and I am not here to criticize Milwaukee or
Wisconsin or anything, but at the politest rule I can think it
is extremely sloppy work, and I don't think you are going to
solve those problems without some very firm steps on how you
operate the elections.
I don't really have a question, but I certainly would be
happy to answer any comments you have.
Mr. Kennedy. I would have one comment to that. I think you
indicated it is very sloppy work and I think Ms. Edman made the
comment it is not going to be tolerated, and I think she comes
from a background send a message in Milwaukee and it is
important as election officials to send a message that we are
the ones that are responsible for people's comfort level in the
integrity of the process, and that means that we need to be
sticklers for detail when it comes to that and I think that is
an important message that has to come and it comes from our
local election officials and it comes from the state election
officials.
Mr. Ehlers. I suggest you carry your weapon or sidearm. Mr.
Kennedy, just a quick question for you. I started to read
between the lines of your testimony and I get the impression
that the Wisconsin state election board and you as executive
director don't have a great deal of authority or have not been
given great authority under the constitution and law to deal
with enforcing the restrictions on the Help America Vote
amendment. Am I misreading you or is that part of the problem?
Mr. Kennedy. We have the authority to order election
officials to conform with law. We have the authority to train
them on what the legal requirements are. We don't--we have
civil enforcement authority for campaign finance which we have
been doing for 30 years but we do not have any civil
enforcement authority.
We do rely quite heavily on the moral suasion at our
office, and we quite frankly rely on the fact that we have a
very dedicated group of local election officials who by far are
committed to that and they come to our presentation and they
come to us with suggestions.
Our county clerks don't have direct responsibility for
administering license, but they are ears in the process by and
far. That is one of the reasons why Ms. Nicholaus is here.
And I think people definitely can take some confidence that
Milwaukee is going to have a much tighter ship based on my
experience working with the folks that are there now.
Mr. Ehlers. It is not just the city. I understand the
county canvas did not even look over the results. Do you have
enforcement authority over the counties?
Mr. Kennedy. The only enforcement authority we have would
be we can order them to conform to the conduct of law. In terms
of punishment, we don't have much in terms of that.
I think the action that led to the county looking at that
publicly described event when the county revealed in the
special committee that they did not do that activity for the
city. They did it for everybody else and not the city and they
could not explain it and they promptly changed their behavior
as a result of that when I raised a question why they have not
set a hearing on it.
Mr. Ehlers. Well, maybe we need Mr. Green's law after all.
Ms. Robinson. I wanted to submit the official report of the
election task force for the record and I appreciate your
concerns and we are taking those seriously.
In fact, every concern you raised is noted in this report,
and we have had numerous recommendations for reforming our
processes and practices at both the administrative and
legislative level. For the record, I want to put this on the
record it reflects we are serious about all those issues.
Mr. Ehlers. Let me just make clear, I am not criticizing
any one of you. You did not have the responsibility in this
one, but I just wanted to give you my point of view on that.
Mr. Ney. Mr. Green.
Mr. Green. Thank you. And Ms. Robinson, I think--what you
are hearing--I think--Milwaukee is a great city this is a great
state and we do have great progressive traditions. I think part
of the concern is if it can happen in Milwaukee, it can happen
anywhere in the country. That's why you hear such a focus on
Milwaukee obviously with the history of the elections being so
close as well.
Mr. Chairman, I want to apologize in advance, as you know,
I have a prior commitment and may not be able to stay for the
questions for the third panel.
As a result I would like to return one more time to the
issue of photo ID. Obviously in many ways, it is the most
controversial part of our discussion today.
Remind folks nearly 70 percent of the people in state,
statewide, all parts of the state favor a photo ID requirement
including 60 percent right here in the City of Milwaukee and 60
percent in the City of Madison.
So there is widespread for this because I think people do
see it as the first step in returning some faith to the
election process.
Now Ms. Nicholaus, in your written testimony you made some
reference to one of the reasons for photo ID requirement. You
said as an ex-election administrator it was difficult to answer
the questions of a distraught voter who calls after going to
vote and has found that someone has voted for her or someone
notices his deceased wife was marked as having voted.
Those are the obvious concrete ways, but it would seem to
me it is more than that, and Ms. Robinson made a reference a
few moments ago about concerns over changes that might punish
the innocent. But Ms. Nicholaus, aren't you concerned when
people read stories of others having voted that are not legally
entitled to vote, don't you think that they're concerned their
vote gets canceled out. So election fraud, election
irregularities whether or not they arise to the level of fraud
or the level of being prosecuted, any time someone votes who
should not have voted, they have wiped out the vote of an
innocent person, an innocent voter somewhere else.
Isn't that the real reason it is so supported in your
council?
Ms. Nickolaus. Sure.
Mr. Green. It seems to me when we talk about the rights of
the innocent which we should, which should be our paramount
concern, we have to be concerned about the rights of that
innocent voter who does everything that we have asked he or she
to do, goes to the polls fully believing that his or her vote
is going to count, that they are making a difference in
election, and then they go home and read of felons illegally
voting, other people illegally voting, and then they say gee, I
stood in line for a hour, I went to the effort, I am trying to
support in democracy, I guess my vote doesn't count because so
and so voted who shouldn't have voted.
So it seems to me as we talk about the innocent here, we
also have to remember the innocent voter who gets frustrated
with the process because they read their vote has been canceled
out who is not innocent.
Ms. Edman, I think that we are all optimistic about what
will happen in Milwaukee in the years ahead as Milwaukee tries
to make changes to improve what we have all seen. Let me ask
you this real quickly.
You are fairly new on the scene in this process of election
administration. What was your biggest surprise when you stepped
into your appointed post of out of what you found in the
current situation in Milwaukee with the elections?
Ms. Edman. I think the amount of paperwork involved in the
elections, the massive registration--number of registration
cards and the--just the amount of work that is involved. People
don't understand. They don't have a clue until they have
experienced it.
Mr. Green. In the Vote Act, and again obviously we are all
focussing on the photo ID requirement, one of the things I
would commend to you and everyone here, I agree with you in
terms of the paperwork challenges and the administrative
challenges and the challenges for poll workers to implement the
requirements.
We worked hard to make sure that there is federal grant
money available and we require the training of poll workers and
require helping out states to administer the training of poll
workers.
Having these record high turnouts is a great thing, but
obviously it puts a strain on the system and I think we
recognize that so we are trying to take steps to make sure the
funds are available in the future. Some would argue that it is
not a federal issue. Those days are gone.
Obviously people in Minnesota have to care about what goes
on in Wisconsin because the future of the presidency may be in
doubt.
So I think you will see that Members of Congress on both
sides of the aisle will do everything we can to make sure that
training does take place and that we step up to the plate to
try to make some of the funds available because it is a real
challenge. We recognize that.
Mr. Ney. And I would note for Mr. Green, and I realize he
has another commitment, the third panel at the end of this
hearing, we will request the member to keep open the record for
30 days so we can ask questions or insert additional materials.
Mr. Green. Thank you.
Mr. Ney. I am now going to go on to the third panel, but I
wanted to point out that the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
recently reported that 3,600 verification cards were returned
as undeliverable . . . these are cards sent to verify same day
registrations and 1,300 could not be sent at all. This is not
the ``over vote'' we spoke about earlier today, but 4,900
ballots that we learned could not be verified after they were
already counted.
I will follow up with a question on that. I just want to
conclude by saying I think it is productive for us.
We get questioned all the time about the Help America Vote
Act. Should we do more? Should we mandate the paper trail?
Should we mandate photo ID? I think the Carter-Baker
Commission, something we talked about today, is helpful and I
think you can see from the tone of Mr. Green's request to come
here that it is helpful to have member participation. As we
look down the road of elections, we don't want to federalize
them, but we do have to have some type of standardization on
certain issues.
But at the end of the day, my state and your great state,
whatever state in this nation, there are certain things that
the federal government isn't able to solve.
If there were lines, should the Congress say, ``Well, in
precinct B in Belmont County, Ohio, you are to put in three
more machines, but in Milwaukee, precinct 4, you need to take
away a machine.'' I don't think we can do that.
A lot of the information we learn in these elections is
helpful, and some of the problems will be solved at the local
level, but again, some of it will be solved with the federal
government, and has to be addressed by the federal government.
And in situations like the last two elections, if these
were blow out elections and were not close, we would all be
sitting here talking about things in the country. But it was
productive having the close elections to look at our whole
election system, even with flaws and mistakes here.
Ms. Moore. Mr. Chairman, I do think the issue that you just
raised really deserves a quick response. You talked about the
3600 undeliverables. I think a lot of that has to do with the--
the class or status of the mail and perhaps they can answer.
For example, if it is Layton Street instead of Layton
Boulevard, that would be undeliverable.
If you give an address of an apartment building and you
don't put apartment 306 on it, that will be undeliverable.
Am I wrong about that.
Mr. Ney. I want to move on with the third panel. I will put
it in writing. I am going to put it in writing. If you would
like to put that----
Ms. Moore. It deserves an answer.
Mr. Kennedy. My quick comment is legislative counsel made
it one of its recommendations that poll workers ensure that the
election day registration forms are legible and that is an
issue. They have to provide identification that----
Mr. Ney. Don't ask me to fill one out.
Mr. Kennedy. This is the poll worker's responsibility.
Election they have to provide identification and opportunity to
match the information with that.
And that's again something where from my observations I
don't think we have spent the attention to detail that needs to
be done at the polling place and that may require more workers.
Mr. Ney. Again, I don't want to take away the third panel's
time. In small areas, small towns where you are dealing with
300 people, people know where each other are from, who they
are, who your dad and mom are and where you got your car loans
from.
But larger areas, of course, this comes more into question
where people don't know each other.
Mr. Kennedy. I will tell you that county seat of Trepelleau
County, there are no street addresses. Everyone has a P.O. Box.
They know where they live, but their mailing address is all
P.O. Box.
Mr. Ney. Any other----
Ms. Robinson. Just again, if you get a chance to review the
election task force report, I think it will be helpful because
it does highlight all the problems and provides solutions to
the problems that occurred including the issues you just raised
about the cards that were--the 1400 cards or whatever.
Ms. Edman. I will make one additional comment. Kevin spoke
about the errors that the poll makers make, the fact that the
cards are illegible. Now, you come to when a data clerk enters
these addresses, there is another set of errors that could
occur in the processing of registration cards, so these are
areas where errors could occur.
You are talking 77,000 registration cards with errors.
We don't know if they are errors or people that don't live
at the locations. So there are many things going on we have to
look at.
Mr. Ney. Just to correct the record, noncitizens with a
green card should have the right to drive in the United States,
illegal aliens do not have the right. I want to thank the panel
for your time.
We will move on to panel 3, Kay Coles James, member of the
Carter-Baker Commission on Federal Election Reform. We have
Andrea Kaminski, executive director of League Of Women Voters
Of Wisconsin, I am sorry, we don't have name tags. Jeff
Erlanger, community activist; Matt O'Neill, Attorney, Friebert,
Finerty, and St. John, and Don Millis, attorney, Michael, Best,
and Friedrich, LLP. Thank you and welcome.
We will start with Kay Coles James.
STATEMENT OF KAY COLES JAMES, CARTER/BAKER COMMISSION ON
FEDERAL ELECTION REFORM
Ms. Coles James. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
for the opportunity to be here. It was a privilege and I would
like to submit my written statement for the record.
Mr. Ney. Without objection.
Ms. Coles James. For the sake of brevity it was a privilege
serving on the Carter/Baker Commission for me on several
levels. First of all, I grew up in Richmond, Virginia, at a
time when voting was a risky endeavor in some parts of the
south. My family was very involved in the civil rights struggle
and remain so today.
For me, it is indeed a privilege to be a part of a
commission whose charge was to make sure that the voting
process both had integrity and access for a lot of the American
population.
While I have presented to the committee a resume that lists
several things, I want to highlight two things that were
particularly germane.
One, when I was director of the United States office of
personnel management, it came as a surprise to many people that
that particular job had a great deal to do with voting and with
protecting the access for voting for several Americans. I was
responsible for the portion of the voting rights act that
authorized OPM to both train and provide observers to certain
political subdivisions and other political units as determined
by the attorney general, and also my service on this commission
that I already mentioned, both I think provides some background
for my particular interest in this subject.
While Wisconsin has its own unique set of challenges, I can
assure you based on the work of our commission they are not
that unique for things that we see going on all around the
country.
I would also like to say that while the Carter/Baker
Commission addressed a whole host of issues, I want to focus on
one that seems to be the most controversial here today, and
that is on the voter ID portion of that.
I would like to, sort of I guess, stand the issue on its
head. Coming out of my perspective and my background what was
important to me was we look at making sure that every American
who had the opportunity to vote, could do that and that their
vote in fact counted.
I would--I would ask you to look at the title of our
commission report which was Building Confidence In U.S.
Elections, and that is why after a great deal of discussion and
a great deal of debate the members of this commission came to a
conclusion that a voter identification was in fact necessary
and we recommended that to the American people.
To assure that the requirement of providing identification
does not prevent, however, any eligible voter from
participating, it was important to us that the ID be free of
charge to all voters and that it also be accessible.
The requirement of a photo ID combined with accurate State
voter rolls, we believe, will prevent most opportunities for
fraud and will increase voters confidence in the outcome of the
election.
And while I know there is a great deal of debate whether
there is fraud or inconsistencies or inaccuracies, sort of the
sense of the commission was never attribute malice where you
could easily attribute and then fill in the blank. If it is
lack of training, if it is lack of ability for funds, whatever
the reason is, our ultimate goal was to increase the confidence
in the system without delaying or pointing fingers at
individuals.
Some have mistakenly suggested that requiring voters to use
ID would be a poll tax, and I want to say for the record that
we believed it to be nothing of the sort.
The vast majority already have a form of the required voter
ID and others should be able to easily obtain the ID. States
should take steps to assure the opportunity for all voters to
obtain said ID.
We have heard some testimony today about the fact that it
would be cumbersome for students or poor people or minorities
and a burden there, and quite frankly from my perspective, the
desire to have a voter ID is in fact to assure that those very
same people when they present themselves at the polling place
are not denied the access to vote.
So I think we all have the same goal in mind and we may get
it--get at it from very different perspectives.
My friend on the Commission, former Democratic congressman
Lee Hamilton has noted that the recommendation of a photo ID
will increase the confidence of the voters especially
minorities and those low income voters that we have talked
about.
In the post 9/11 society where ID is required to enter a
federal building, to cash a check, to board a plane, to take
the SAT or to do most anything, I don't think it is an undue
burden to ask all American citizens to have that sort of ID.
As a matter of fact in most emerging democracies it is
really a badge of honor that one has acquired such an ID and is
participating in the process.
I think it is just good public policy, and I would also say
that our commission was so diverse in its perspectives, and
that you had strong advocates that were not shrinking violets
and managed to express their opinion, yet we came together
after debating this issue quite a bit and I would note that
President Carter, Lee Hamilton, both well-known democrats and
civil rights activists, like former Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young,
as well as people that we all would recognize like Juan
Williams all support voter ID, but maybe for different reasons
or different perspectives but I think we all want the same
thing and that is a process we all feel good about that
guarantees access and the integrity and restores to the
American people the confidence of our voting process.
Mr. Ney. Thank you.
[The statement of Ms. Coles James follows:]
Mr. Ney. Ms. Kaminski.
STATEMENT OF ANDREA KAMINSKI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LEAGUE OF
WOMEN VOTERS OF WISCONSIN
Ms. Kaminski. Thank you, Chairman Ney, for inviting me to
appear before you. My name is Andrea Kaminski and I am
executive director, League of Women Voters of Wisconsin. I
brought copies of my testimony as requested and I submit them
to the committee.
Mr. Ney. Without objection.
Ms. Kaminski. The Wisconsin league is proud of our state's
open and fair election process as well as our high voter
turnout in the 2004 election. We have no doubt that the two
were related.
Based on our long-standing principle that every citizen
should be protected in the right to vote, we support
legislation that improves accessibility and ease for voting for
all eligible citizens and promotes voter confidence in the
integrity of our election process.
The League's support of free and fair elections goes back
to our founding in 1920. In the late 1970s, we supported the
Wisconsin legislature's enactment of major election reform
including the establishment of registration at the polls and
the definition of what kind of identification is needed for
registration.
We will continue to fight to protect citizens' rights to
participate in government and to oppose any major threats to
our constitutional right to vote.
We are not sure why the committee has come to Milwaukee to
hold this hearing when Milwaukee's 2004 election already has
been heavily scrutinized by local, state, and federal agencies
as well as by the media.
The findings of these investigations show that virtually
all of the discrepancies were the result of the inevitable
incidence of human error on a hectic day.
The League has opposed the efforts of several sessions in
the Wisconsin legislature to require all citizens to show a
government issued photo identification card in order to vote.
Proponents of voter ID base their position on the assertion
that it would reduce fraud and somehow keep felons from voting.
The League agrees it is imperative to reduce fraud but
voter ID does nothing to address the problem. It certainly
would not have prevented the felons who voted in their own
names from casting a ballot in Wisconsin last November.
More important, the proposed Wisconsin voter ID bill places
an unfair burden on certain groups of people including the
elderly, low income, minorities, students, homeless and
disabled, the very people for whom it is most difficult to take
off work, get transportation, go to the DMV and wait in line,
and apply for the documentation.
At a hearing earlier this year, a disabled woman in
Madison, where services are about as good as you are going to
get in Wisconsin, described what she would have to go through
to get to the DMV and get identification and it was a major
undertaking.
With all due respect, a photo ID is not definitive proof of
address, nor does it tell us if someone is a felon who may not
vote or, for that matter, a former felon whose voting rights
have been restored.
The statewide registration lists that will be implemented
in 2006 will be a far more effective and fair tool for
minimizing abuse of the system. So, voter ID would do nothing
to protect the integrity of Wisconsin elections and it would
restrict voting particularly by certain groups of people.
That's a net loss for democracy.
In a recent report, the Wisconsin legislative audit bureau
recommended that the state elections board use its existing
authority to improve and enforce the election rules that ensure
a smooth and fair election process.
The bureau's findings highlight the need for a more uniform
system as well as adequate resources and requirements to
implement existing rules and policies. The report says, quote,
``the system alone will not be sufficient if municipal clerks
and other local officials do not detect and prevent common data
entry errors, appropriately revise and update voter
registration and information, and follow uniform procedures for
identifying improper registrars and ineligible voters,'' end
quote.
Poll workers and election officials do a remarkable and
vitally important job under great stress, but the system is
failing them just as it is failing the voters. Let's focus on
the real problem at hand, the need for more resources for
carrying out our elections.
There are dozens of measures being reviewed by senator
Leibham's special committee here in Wisconsin that promise
positive election reform. The League supports those that
specifically improve accessibility and ease of voting for all
eligible citizens. We heartily support measures that put more
workers at the polls on election day and require uniform
standards for the training of all poll workers and election
officials.
We strongly believe Congress should provide substantial new
and ongoing funding for election improvements in the states. To
sum up, last week in Georgia, U.S. District Judge Harold Murphy
granted an injunction on a new voter ID law in that state
knowing it would do nothing to address voter fraud.
He said he had great respect for the Georgia legislature
but he added ``the Court, however, simply has more respect for
the constitution,'' end quote.
Let's not compromise anyone's constitutional right to vote
with a misguided attempt to fix a system that is not broken.
Thank you.
Mr. Ney. Thank you.
[The statement of Ms. Kaminski follows:]
Mr. Ney. Mr. Erlanger.
STATEMENT OF JEFF ERLANGER, COMMUNITY ACTIVIST
Mr. Erlanger. Thank you for the opportunity to come to
speak. Today I am here--as you said I am a community activist.
My specific things group that I am here to speak on behalf of
are the disabled.
I have served on the City of Madison committee people with
disabilities and their ADA transit oversight subcommittee.
My understanding is while the state proposal may require
disabled people have to have voter ID, it is my understanding
that the federal proposal actually exempts people with
disabilities. First of all, am I correct about that.
Mr. Ney. Well, the Help America Vote Act just requires the
last four digits of your social security number. You can use a
photo ID or you can use a bank slip statement. So it doesn't--
Mr. Erlanger. That's for everybody. My comments will be a
little different.
Mr. Ney. I am sorry. The current law that we wrote the Help
America Vote Act just requires either a photo, the last four
digits of the Social Security number, bank slip, or water
utility slip, for first time registrants only, not for existing
voters.
And so what you are talking about is Mr. Green's act.
Mr. Erlanger. Right.
Mr. Ney. As introduced.
Mr. Erlanger. Right.
Mr. Ney. I am sorry.
Mr. Erlanger. So that's what I am here for today. Instead
of saying I am for or against it, I wanted to ask the committee
some questions for you to think about.
One is why would people with disabilities be exempt from
Mark Green's proposal? Is it because we might find it hard to
get to the DMV to get our voter ID? Is it because we might not
be able to pay for it? Or is it so that we can more on our own
independently go and vote without having someone go into our
wallet or something to get out a ID.
In any case assuming it is for logistical purposes or for
our economic purposes, I want to remind you all there are other
people out there besides the disabled that have a hard time
getting places.
The poor may not have cars, they may have to work all day
and not be able to make it to the polls to go vote, for
whatever reason.
Students may not be able to for the same reason be able to
go and change their--and change their address every time they
move. They might find it hard or have just moved to campus and
find out in a week or 10 days that they have to--that there is
an election so they have to come quickly and get their address
changed.
So I want to remind you that there are more people from
disability that might find it hard to get there.
I also want to remind people that not all people with
disabilities are honest so just because we are disabled doesn't
mean that we might not go and commit fraud and as someone
reminded me, that doesn't stop someone from finding a
wheelchair to just wheel into the polling place and say they
are disabled so they don't have to show a voter ID.
So I think if we are going to exempt people with
disabilities we have to find a way to exempt other people who
may be in similar situations.
Also I believe that the voter ID should be free. If you are
going to ask people to constantly go and get it updated and you
are going to charge them, to me that is a poll tax. You might
not call it a poll tax, well, you need the ID, you might find a
way to spin it, if you are requiring them to pay for it in
order to vote, it is a poll tax.
I ran as I said in my written statement, I ran for city
council in Madison in 2003 and 10 percent of the people in my
district voted. Only 10 percent. I don't think it is just
because they were not impressed with me and my opponent who
eventually won.
In 2001 it was actually less than 10 percent who showed up
to vote and I was not in the race so nothing to do with me.
So I don't think, while I am all for avoiding fraud, I
don't think our problem is trying to get people--is trying to
stop people from voting. It is trying to get more people to
vote, and to do that we need to not increase barriers but
reduce the barriers.
Mr. Ney. Thank you.
Mr. Erlanger. So I thank you for your time.
[The statement of Mr. Erlanger follows:]
Mr. Ney. In response to your question, it is not my piece
of legislation, but it is in the Committee. Just so you know, I
have tended to not act upon a lot of the legislation until HAVA
is completely implemented unless there is something that really
stands out in 2006 and that's one of the reasons we are here
today as an investigatory body--to learn what we can do or
maybe can't do, and certain things are going to have to be
locally taken care of.
I appreciate your testimony quite a lot.
Mr. O'Neill.
STATEMENT OF MATT O'NEILL, ATTORNEY, FRIEBERT, FINERTY & ST.
JOHN
Mr. O'Neill. Thank you Chairman Ney, Congressman Ehlers,
Congressman Moore, I appreciate the opportunity to address the
committee today.
I am an attorney in Milwaukee and last year 2004 I served
as deputy state counsel for the Kerry Edwards' campaign.
In that capacity my primary job was to help train over 700
lawyers to observe the polls on election day and to help voters
exercise their constitutional right to vote.
Our primary focus when we trained our attorneys to work at
the polls was to ensure that every eligible and qualified voter
that showed up at a poll on election day was allowed to cast
their ballot.
We had our attorneys in the field fill out incident reports
noting anything that happened on election day that appeared
unusual, notable, interesting, anything that might be worth
looking at later on after the election. We then analyzed those
thousands of incidents that were reported by the attorneys, put
together a report summarizing what we learned from our
attorneys in the field, and I would like to--I don't know if
this had been submitted previously, but I would like to get
that to the committee.
Mr. Ney. Without objection it is part of the record.
Mr. O'Neill. After looking at all the incident reports
reflecting back with our experience with the election, there
were four major problems with the election process in 2004 in
Milwaukee. The first and major problem was simply the large
turnout of 76 percent statewide, and Milwaukee was right in
that ballpark, and frankly, that turnout simply overwhelmed the
election volunteers that take care of our elections.
Understand, every four years we have this massive turnout and
in between there are elections that are nowhere near this size,
and we do not increase with any amount that we need to the
number of people working at those high turnout elections and
they were overwhelmed with the tasks at hand.
Second, we had problems in the City of Milwaukee
specifically with the preelection registration process and that
ended up with the City of Milwaukee having, I think, about
eight boxes of unprocessed registration cards that were
properly filled out, people believed that they were registered
and yet we found out the day before the election that these
eight boxes, that were not going to be at the polls and those
individual people were not going to be on the local poll list.
As a resident of Milwaukee, I personally sued the City of
Milwaukee Elections Commission and the Commissioner, and I was
able to work with a member of Mr. Millis' firm and Kevin
Kennedy with the Election Board that night before the election
to hammer out a procedure by which those people, if they showed
up, we actually were able to facilitate getting the physical
registration cards to each of the polling places so they could
check, I registered. You are not on the list they could check
and find the cards.
Another problem that was prevalent and came up primarily at
the end of the day is with the absentee voting process in
Wisconsin. There was testimony before about what needs to be
changed, and we found at the end of the day there was mass
confusion about how the absentee ballots were to be counted,
how they were to be processed.
On the envelopes a lot of people would write their address
which was not the address at which they were registered, and
where they addressed it was a problem finding them on the list.
The fourth problem we found were Republican efforts to
monitor the election ended up, in our view to be suppressive of
the ability of people to vote for citizens of Milwaukee.
I want to focus on that.
The primary aspects we observed of the Republican efforts
that ended up suppressing the vote in our opinion in very
targeted wards in the City of Milwaukee and other urban areas
and student areas, the Republicans placed at least one person
directly behind the election officials and had them standing
there with Palm Pilots or other kinds of Blackberrys and what
they would do is look at the voters, and after they stated
their names, they would punch them in and look them up and
down.
And I know that during the middle of election day, my wife
called and said she felt intimidated when she faced that
particular effort. I would like to submit also for the record
one of our incident reports from an attorney Eric Straub who
reports about some very, very aggressive observation efforts by
an attorney from Michigan by the name of Perry Christy who is
then joined by State Senator Tom Reynolds and I would like to
submit that. It shows what was going on on the ground.
Mr. Ney. Without objection.
[The exhibit follows:]
Mr. O'Neill. Part of the things that happened at all of
these polling places were people walking around in these orange
T-shirts that say I am a ``HAVA Volunteer.''
I know Chairman Ney might want to have a copy of this, but
it is actually Mr. Kennedy's particular shirt that he loaned to
me.
Mr. Ney. What was this?
Mr. O'Neill. This was a T-shirt, Individuals at the polling
places that were wearing these ``HAVA Volunteer'' bright orange
T-shirts, and we found out from our volunteers that these
people were actually being paid to wear the T-shirts, and we
found out that many of them knew very little about HAVA. With
all due respect, HAVA in the last election had very little
impact on Wisconsin. It was only those people who had mailed in
their registration and were voting for the first time in a
presidential election in Wisconsin that it had any impact on.
Other problems we had were towards--Republican volunteers
voting up and down the lines having interaction with voters
talking about whether people were on the list or not,
challenging the election authorities in the way they manage the
business, using the challenge process. In sum I just wanted to
bring to the Committee's attention, there was another
particular item that was very troublesome in the past election
cycle here, and that was the efforts, and I know what I hear
from my Republican colleagues that they were there trying to
fair it out and prevent fraud, but I think they were very over
aggressive and overzealous and I believe it suppressed the
right of citizens of the City of Milwaukee to vote.
Mr. Ney. Thank you.
[The statement of Mr. O'Neill follows:]
STATEMENT OF DON MILLIS, ATTORNEY, MICHAEL, BEST, AND
FRIEDRICH, LLP
Mr. Millis. Mr. Chairman, members, thank you for this
opportunity. I have never had the opportunity to testify before
this committee before. However, I have testified before
committees on which Representative Moore has sat, and I have
enjoyed every experience and this will go just as smoothly.
I am Attorney Don Millis and I am a lawyer in private
practice in Madison, Wisconsin. For four years, I served on the
State Elections Board. From time to time, I get involved in
representing people in election-related disputes; don't try to
do it very often as it doesn't pay very well.
Wisconsin has a reputation for clean government. We also
have a reputation for encouraging voter participation. We were
among the first states to have primary elections and the open
primary. We have election-day registration. I think those are
all things we can be proud of. Those are the steps we've taken
to promote voting in Wisconsin.
Our clean reputation has taken it on the chin of late.
There have been scandals involving politicians in Madison and
what not and this is not good for anyone. I think as damaging
as those have been, have been the accusations or the talk of
voter fraud in the last three November elections. I think these
are damaging to all of us, and I think there are two ways it
hurts our democracy.
The first is the obvious. It may actually have changed the
results of some elections. If someone were to ask me do I think
the results in any election would have changed, I would say I
don't think so.
But the problem--the fact that I can't say for sure--gets
us to the second problem, that is the perception problem. There
is a wide perception that things have not been on the up and up
and may have caused problems.
I think one of the most important things that a democratic
government does is to conduct elections, and I think if we are
going to, not only one, avoid the actual fraud and avoid change
of election results and, two, enhance people's confidence in
the electoral result, we are going to have to take many steps.
After the 2000 election, when I was still on the Elections
Board, we started the ball rolling in a variety of ways. First,
we started by outlawing punch-card ballots. No more hanging
chads in Wisconsin. And we also had a series of proposals that
some of us presented to the Elections Board that did not go
very far.
Statewide voter registration we would not have but for
HAVA, but we also talked about photo IDs. It has become of the
things we are talking about the most, but I think there are
other things that should be considered.
I think one of the things Mr. O'Neill mentioned is we have
to have more machines in polling places, we have to accommodate
large groups. I think we should strive for a national standard
that no one should wait in line for more than 20 minutes to
vote. Long lines do as much as anything to depress a voter
turnout. But nevertheless we are here and photo IDs seem to be
the thing that we are talking about. I guess I would like to
make a few observations about this.
I think that there have been discussion about the fact that
there were very few convictions, actual cases of proven voter
fraud. There is a special prosecutor who is going to file a
report in Washington and whether or not certain people are
indicted or certain people are convicted, a certain segment of
society is going to believe that certain administration
officials were guilty.
I don't know whether they are guilty or not, but the fact
is in the same way that the proof problems exist in any
investigation, there are proof problems in conduct of
elections. And the fact that a prosecutor cannot prove or be
confident he or she can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that
fraud existed, doesn't mean fraud didn't exist.
But more importantly is the perception of fraud. There are
some circumstances in which a photo ID would assist. A couple
of people talked about the situation where someone shows up at
polling place and discovers someone else voted or someone else
may have been checked off the list as voting. I had a friend of
my wife called a year ago and said, ``I went to vote and they
said I already voted and I had not voted.'' She was persistent
and she managed to convince the poll worker to let her vote
which was the correct way. I did subsequently talk to some
election officials and this happens actually more often than
you might expect.
Whether it is intentional--it's probably not intentionally
very often--but the fact that it occurs is an indication where
a photo ID would assist.
I think the greater impact of the photo ID would be the
confidence that it would inspire in every person who
participates in elections. If I know that I have to have a
photo ID and the next person next in line and the next, I think
that inspires confidence.
I think it does have widespread support. There used to be a
law in Wisconsin--it doesn't exist anymore--but in these
communities that were small enough to have polling lists, they
didn't have registration lists. You showed up. There was no
list, you said, `` I am Don Millis. This is my street
address.''
In those municipalities, the poll worker had the ability to
demand any person to present an ID with no objective criteria.
You could have a situation where the person just thought you
didn't look like you belonged here.
I don't know how often it occurred. If people were
discriminated against, it would certainly be inexcusable.
I can tell you one thing, I don't think we had any
complaints during my time on the Elections Board about that and
I think the reason is that generally poll workers try to do the
best job they can and are not interested in depressing the
vote. I think the idea of having to present an ID is something
that people understand and are willing to do it. And I think
the fact we have got wide acceptance of this indicates that I
think we are ready to take that step. Thank you for the
opportunity to testify.
[The statement of Mr. Millis follows:]
Mr. Ney. Thank you so much. I will give my slot to Mr.
Ehlers since he has to leave.
Mr. Ehlers. Thank you. I have to catch a plane because I
have to give a speech back home which was scheduled before
this. I appreciate the opportunity for this wrap up comment.
I don't have any specific questions for any of you. As I
said before I am surprised to the extent the photo ID has been
the center of the discussion, apparently not only here but in
Wisconsin. I don't regard that as the most overwhelming problem
in elections.
I also want to comment, I have been involved in holding
hearings on elections in several places in the country from the
West Coast to California to the East Coast of North Carolina
and points between.
Wisconsin had never been on my list of any area that had
serious voting problems. I think by and large it is a good
system and run well. I have been fairly critical in some of my
comments here, but don't take that personally. My hobby is to
try to make sure all governments operate smoothly, I hate to
see things go wrong, and I have a great deal of respect for the
government in this country and I want it to work well.
I really appreciate the comments that you have made and the
other witnesses have made. It has given us a good handle on it,
and I think you are well on the way to solving these problems.
The one thing that really surprises me is the reasons given
against the voter ID and I am especially surprised, Ms.
Kaminski, that the League of Women Voters has bought into that.
Most of those I have not heard before. I have never seen any
substantiation of the charge that somehow a voter ID will
discourage people from voting. I think it has been on the
contrary as Ms. James has mentioned. It has been a positive
influence on people and their knowledge that they have a
definite ability to vote.
Now, if they show up, they wouldn't have an example such as
Mr. Millis mentioned, you have already voted, voter ID would
stop that. I think it would certainly be a much better thing
over all, and I think people would be proud to have it.
It should not cost anything, I agree with that, and as I
said, my system which I proposed just off my head here, we have
all of these electronic systems now, it would not be hard to
have one person at each polling place doing the voter IDs right
there.
And there are machines now that print it right out, hand it
to them, they walk out after having voted having their own
personal voter ID, and I don't think that in any way is
intimidating and it shouldn't be.
Furthermore, if you do it in the voting place, you are
likely to have an accurate record of the address as well and
that gets away from the postcards, that gets out of being
illegible. All done electronically. Good picture. Accurate
address. What more can you ask for.
I don't think it will intimidate anyone or prevent them
from voting.
In terms of those who don't have ready access to the
polling place or vote absentee, that is another issue. I assure
you that I could easily think of systems that would solve that
as well and not at great cost either.
I think you ought to take voter ID issues off the table and
concentrate on the clean up of the administrative problems that
occurred here, and also if there are problems of intimidation.
I sympathize with that because I heard reports of that in
different cities, both sides of the aisle, intimidation is
used, and certainly inappropriate in a polling place and there
should be clear rules established as to what behavior is
acceptable and what is not.
I want to thank you for your hospitality. Milwaukee is a
wonderful place, I enjoyed it very much. Wisconsin is a great
place. After all they host the Oshkosh Air Venture every
summer, and since I used to be a pilot and aspire to getting
back into it if I ever retire, that's another asset here.
I can't say much for the beer because I don't drink beer,
but it is a wonderful state and I have many fond memories of
being here a number of ways.
Keep it the way it is, keep it clean, correct the problems
you had last time, and maybe you will go off everyone's radar
immediately in terms of any discussions of voter fraud.
Thank you very much for your hospitality and what you are
doing.
Mr. Ney. Thank you. Ms. Moore.
Ms. Moore. Well, thank you so much Mr. Chairman, and again,
this has been another distinguished panel, and I really
appreciated the time that you have all taken to come here
today.
I am going to just make a statement and perhaps someone
will want to respond. One of the--the real confusions I think
that comes up with this whole voter ID thing is that people
continue to say I don't understand why people are not middle
class.
Why don't they have--they need a photo ID to drive, they
need a photo ID to ride an airplane, they need a photo ID to
open a bank account, they need it to enroll in school to take a
SAT, they need a photo ID to get cough syrup, and what the
difference is in the ability to vote and the ability to take
the SAT is that unfortunately education is not a constitutional
right. It ought to be. Getting cough syrup ought to be a
constitutional right, and it is not.
We have a right to vote, so that means if you are too poor
to have a car, guess what, you can still vote.
If you don't have two hours to sit up in the DMV to get a
voter ID, you have a right to vote. Even if you can't fly on an
airplane to Naples, Florida, you have a right to vote.
And even though you don't have a right to food stamps where
you might need a photograph ID, you have a right to vote.
You don't have a right to go to Blockbusters to get a
video, but you have a right to vote. And the normative
assumption that you ought to be middle class, why aren't people
just middle class.
My granddaughter has a birthday tomorrow, and I gave my
daughter some money to open up a bank account and they wouldn't
do it. She had a photo ID, but she didn't have a credit card.
She just wasn't middle class enough to be able to do that.
So poor people move often, poor people don't, and I am
telling you that we have data that part of the record I want
everyone to really look at it, there is a very clear
correlation between having a photo ID and being middle class,
and that requirement would really, really, really, put a damp
on people's rights to vote.
I do appreciate Mr. Erlanger to come all the way from
Madison, Wisconsin to give testimony and being an ally. He said
why would you exempt disabled people who have tremendous
challenges to be able to get the right to vote and those are
just one source of challenges because you got the same
challenge if you are elderly and you have not driven, you have
the same challenge if you in fact are poor and you don't have a
car or if you have some other disability that is not
necessarily a physical disability, but you are on great numbers
of medication or whatever where you don't drive.
Clearly in the United States we have at least 50 million
people who don't vote, and I am really proud to be from
Wisconsin, Congressman Ney, a state that values voter
participation. We have the second highest turnout in the
nation, and we ought to be looking to be examples of and models
of how to increase the enfranchisement of people; not only in
this country but as we export democracy to other countries as
well instead of focussing on ways to frustrate the vote.
The questions I guess I have of this panel again relate to
what--what you regard as the greatest impediment to voting.
We have heard today about the numbers of errors, we have
heard about fraudulent behavior, and I guess--I guess I want to
refer to what just happened in Georgia where there is an
injunction against enforcing the voter ID requirement because
they have said that this violates the 24th amendment to the
constitution.
I want each one of you all to just quickly respond to those
findings.
Ms. Coles James. First of all, I could not agree with you
more, there should not be a disparity between poor people and
middle class people where middle class people can move about
the society because they do have ID, and I think ID ought to be
provided to poor people as well and that is why they ought to
remove all barriers to their ability to have that kind of
identification, and that's why this commission said it ought to
be free.
And as a matter of fact, we charged the states to go out
and identify the people who do not have ID and see to it that
they get it, so that no person in America needs to feel like a
second class citizen because they don't have access to ID.
That's one thing.
And I--I really believe that having come at this from a
various--the Commission having come at it from various
different positions and aisles, we all agreed on one thing and
that is we wanted to protect the integrity of the process and
to build confidence in the system.
And I believe that voter ID has such strong widespread
support it passes the straight face test because quite frankly
it is not unreasonable of people to say if you present yourself
at the polling place, it is reasonable to assume that the
person standing there is in fact the person that is--that is on
the list.
And so requiring a voter ID seems to make sense to most
Americans, and I believe it is--it is wrong, it is patently
wrong that poor people, minorities, and other individuals who
might not have access to ID feel like they are second class
citizens, so we should do everything in our power to provide
that to them and accommodate them in that process.
Ms. Moore. I really actually thank you for raising the
other point that I had forgotten to raise in your last
statement, and that is not only should poor people not be
disenfranchised in that way, you say that the--it will be free,
that the card should be free, but we--we really don't know how
we would get these--get these cards to everyone.
Ms. Coles James. Well, there are ways to do that.
Quite frankly, one of the reasons some of us support it the
recommendation by the Commission is because we had serious
problems with how it was being applied in an un-uniform way
across America and had some concerns about how some states were
implementing this.
If in fact, as you said earlier, someone was going to be
charged for a birth certificate and so it was sort of a hidden
poll tax, there are ways that you can as a state make the
determination that if someone is in fact trying to get a--a
voter ID that they should not have to pay for that.
Ms. Moore. Would you do that at the expense of our state,
same day registration. We had 77,000 people register on
election day. We are really proud of that, and it seems to me a
requirement for a photo ID just deliberately or inadvertently
ends same day registration, and it does frustrate the ability
of people to participate when you have an advance requirement
because you want the photo ID to mean something so--do you not
agree with same day registration.
Ms. Coles James. I think you are proud as well you should
be and with technology as it exists today, that need not be a
barrier.
Ms. Moore. I have got a son, for example, whose birthday is
November 6th, he did not run into the problem November 6th is
real close and sometimes falls on the first Tuesday.
What would happen if my son had turned 18 on a presidential
election day and didn't have a voter ID card.
Right now our law allows me as his parent to vouch for him
and say he is in fact 18 years old even though he doesn't have
a driver's license, and so I guess my concerns around voter ID
is all of the preparation and middle classness that it really
takes to have any kind of voter ID.
You can't have done what poor people do and that's move
four times a year. If this were a different hearing, would
Milwaukee Public Schools here, they would tell you that the
biggest problem that they have is the mobility of the students
because they move four times during that year.
So I--I really do want Chairman Ney to understand when we
talk about imposing a photo ID requirement, we really are
talking about a class issue, and I do thank you for that
testimony.
And I don't know what the indulgence of the chair is going
to be because I did invite other people to respond to
Georgia's----
Mr. Millis. With the indulgence----
Ms. Moore. Yes.
Mr. Ney. I have to add a caveat. If your son turned 18 and
wasn't able to register that day, and the democratic candidate
lost by one vote for the presidency, it would be tough.
Ms. Moore. I will tell you, my son hounded me the day he
turned 18 to go register to vote so we did not have that
problem.
Mr. Millis. My first driver's license photo was taken in a
classroom in my high school. Back then in those days, this is
decades before sad to say before digital photography, but
that's how they did it back then: The driver ed class came in.
There is no reason today, as Congressman mentioned, why in the
underserved areas, where we have lots of folks who don't have
photo IDs, that the Department of Transportation in Wisconsin
which is under the legislation that has been pending here, they
should go into communities, set it up, bring the camera, very
portable, print them out right there.
Ms. Moore. That's what they did in Georgia and there is an
injunction against them, the guy in the mobile home, what if he
doesn't get to my rural setting? What if I am not at home when
the mobile van comes through? You know----
Ms. Coles James. Georgia had a lot of other issues.
Ms. Moore. Yes, including trying to suppress the vote of
people of color and there is no question of the requirement of
a state issue ID will have an impact on minorities. Whether
that is the intent or not, that would be the effect. It
disenfranchises the people of color.
And if you are not home when that motor voter truck comes
to your home, you won't get your ID, and it will eliminate same
day registration.
Mr. O'Neill. Very quickly with the Chair's indulgence, you
asked the question what the greatest barrier to voting is.
Currently in the City of Milwaukee it is the amount of time it
takes to vote in a presidential election because of the
overwhelming turnout and understaffed polling places.
The greatest asset conversely I believe is same day
registration. I think that is the principle of Wisconsin's
steadfast right to protect as broadly as it can the right to
exercise the constitutional right to vote. You asked also about
the Georgia decision. I read that decision. It is very long and
exhaustive and goes over a bunch of evidence.
I think it is correctly reasoned and it comes down with two
particular conclusions. The first is that it violates the right
to vote because it places a barrier to voting that is not
justified by what the state put forth as the need for voter ID.
And I think one of the things everyone has to step back because
everybody likes to yell fraud, really we have not gotten to a
point, certainly not in Wisconsin, where there is a kind of
overwhelming amount of evidence of a need for this kind of what
anybody even in the report of the Commission, the Carter-Baker
Commission acknowledges will place a barrier to some people
exercising the right to vote.
So I don't think there is evidence to support voter ID.
The second thing that that judge found that it is the
equivalent of a poll tax. Regardless whether you say it is
free, Georgia had a very strange affidavit requirement of
indigency where they invited people to lie, but there is a
constitution--24th amendment of the constitution says there
shall not be a poll tax directly or indirectly and what the
judge found was in order for someone to take the steps to get a
license or a state ID who didn't have one, it would cost them
money, and that was equivalent of a poll tax, and I think that
is a correctly decided decision.
Mr. Erlanger. I would like to make a comment. Back to the
question what is the biggest barrier being that I ran in a
student district, I would say the biggest barrier is the lines.
There is no reason it should need to take forever.
I know in 1992 where I voted, it--the lines were two hours
long. I got to cut halfway through because of the elevator I
needed to take, took me halfway through the line, I was able to
go by half as quickly as everyone else, but I think the lines
are the biggest barrier.
I think that it would be really horrible if we had to get
rid of the same day recommendation. Out of the people who voted
in the city council election I ran in, I would say probably a
large majority maybe 90 percent of them were same day
registrants.
It was a student district, and they didn't know. They
thought they lived--since they were from Illinois that they
were not allowed to vote in Wisconsin, and it took all through
the election to convince--to get people to understand they were
allowed to vote in Madison.
The other barrier I would say is not everyone's voting
place is right near them. Mine is across the street. Some
people's are farther away. While Madison has a great pair of
transit system and one of the only demand response taxi cabs in
the country, most people--most cities don't have that kind of
situation, and for someone with--a person with disability to
get to the voting place is very difficult.
If you are going to have voter IDs, the only way to do it
would be to take the picture in my view take the picture at the
polling place and a computer that could check your address, and
that would be a problem for poor people so I don't think it is
possible to do it.
Ms. Kaminski. With the Chair's indulgence, I would like to
respond to something Congressman Ehlers said earlier.
Mr. Ney. Yes.
Ms. Kaminski. I want to say actually the Georgia League of
Women Voters was very active in opposing the voter ID law and
was one of the organizations that sued.
If voter ID is to be a proof of address, then it is a
problem for people who move often. My daughter is white, she is
middle class, but she is 21 and she moves often, and that's a
problem for many of us.
I agree that voter ID is really not the biggest problem
here. It has been an emotional issue, but frankly we at the
League wish it had died a couple of years ago the first time
the governor vetoed it.
The real problem is election management and the League of
Women Voters believe we need to professionalize management with
uniform standards, training to those standards, and
accountability. We believe that there should be a service focus
and that will deal with some of the other problems on election
day. Voting should be convenient, efficient, and accessible.
Mr. Ney. We are getting into statements. If you want to
answer the question, we can still go over your statements,
there are answers to her----
Ms. Moore. Yes, as it relates to the Georgia law and
particularly given the Georgia injunction, how do you see
problems surfacing were we to implement photo ID.
Ms. Kaminski. How do I see problems with regard to
implementing.
Ms. Moore. Continue saying--I am asking you what you are
talking about.
Mr. Ney. Otherwise people would ask for statements not
discussed.
Ms. Kaminski. We believe that voter ID is not proof of
address and it is a problem for those who move often and it is
a problem for many people. The real problem with elections is
with management. We believe we need to have more professional
uniform standards and then funding to support their
implementation. Thank you.
Mr. Ney. Let me just ask a couple of questions and then
wrap it up unless she has other questions.
I want to ask a question of Ms. Coles James. I was a bit
surprised when I saw the recommendation out of Carter-Baker on
some areas and not on others.
With the Ford-Carter Commission, I think one of the thrills
of my lifetime, I had back to back phone calls with President
Carter and President Ford after we passed HAVA and the Ford-
Carter Commission was huge, monumental in helping with HAVA to
create that piece of legislation, and some things they
recommended we took and some we didn't.
It was a little easier with some of the recommendations, as
we were embarking on a brand new area, the first federal
involvement in elections without federalizing.
And of course I served with Lee Hamilton--I don't think you
could find a fairer person--and Andrew Young. Looking at the
controversy about the photo ID coming out of Carter-Baker, was
there concern or were there discussions during the whole
deliberations to create the final report about the
disenfranchisement of individuals and particular minorities.
Ms. Coles James. Yes, there was a great deal of discussion
about that both in formal discussions during the Commission as
well as informal discussions outside of the actual formal
deliberations.
And I think one thing needs to be said for clarification.
We tend to talk about photo ID as though there is one way to do
it, and I think we need to clarify that.
There are many who supported the recommendation of the
Carter-Baker Commission because they didn't like the way it was
being done in Georgia, so you can't--you can't line up the
Carter-Baker recommendation with Georgia and say they are the
same, therefore, all recommendations for photo ID are bad. It
requires a little bit more thought than that.
And so I think that point needs to be made. The discussions
about disenfranchisement were very thoughtful and very
deliberative, and the individuals who ended up voting in favor
of this particular recommendation did so because they were
convinced that with proper safeguards and those that you will
see discussed in the full commission report in place that it
would not--it would result in minorities or poor people being
disenfranchised, but you have to--you have to take the full
piece which says that they--we should make every effort to make
sure that states do not have any kind of overt or covert poll
tax, to make sure that it is accessible, to make sure that
states actually go out and in an aggressive way try to identify
individuals who don't have ID and see to it that it does get
into their hands.
We are not talking about a van that you may miss because it
doesn't come to your neighborhood. We are talking about opening
up lots of places around a state where someone would have
access to get this done. Quite frankly the way they are doing
in it in Georgia where they have multiple counties and very few
opportunities to have a picture taken is in my opinion not the
way to get it done.
So we had those discussions, we talked about it, and at the
end of the day, the overwhelming majority of the commissioners
felt that to build confidence in U.S. Election, to have
American people feel good at the end of the day about the
process, that it is not unreasonable to say that the person
presenting themselves at the polling place in fact is the
person whose name is on that registration list.
Mr. Ney. Thank you. I just have one comment, Mr. Erlanger.
One--one of the problems you have got and I am not saying same
day registration is bad or good or wrong or right.
I'm not stating a position on this, but if you have same
day registration you come up with the surprise factor. Same day
registration last election yielded 70,000 or 76,000 new people.
Maybe next election 20,000, who knows? I think some of the
reasons you would have long lines is because you don't have the
ability to anticipate how many people are registered prior to
election.
I think the long lines are going to have to be addressed
whether you have the same data or not. It was an issue in Ohio;
we had an unusual type of election. I think inherently you are
going to have a lot of local pressure. If you have long lines,
they are going to call their Mayor, Congressman, and a lot of
people and start to yell about those long lines.
I know it happened in Columbus, Ohio--we had longer lines
than where I live in the eastern part of the state.
Mr. Erlanger. I think it is a barrier. I don't think there
is necessarily something that can be done. It is a barrier.
Mr. Ney. Yes.
Mr. Erlanger. You have to admit it is a barrier and there
might be things that can be done creative things, but I think
that is up to--that may be something the federal government can
do. I don't know. It is a barrier.
Mr. Ney. I think the locals probably will after one of the
highest voter turnouts in the history of the country.
Interesting, on another note I wanted to ask Mr. O'Neill--on
the intimidation factor--you said people were standing behind
the pollworkers during the vote.
Mr. O'Neill. Correct. The way voting happens if you are
registered----
Mr. Ney. In the state of Ohio, you can't stand behind.
Mr. O'Neill. We have open observation rules that don't
specify--they allow observers to stand close enough that they
can see and hear what happens at the table, both the
registration table and the table where the poll lists are. That
is what the law is.
Mr. Ney. Observers.
Mr. O'Neill. Stationed directly behind. Sometimes the
election officials told them to move it over to the side.
Sometimes they didn't.
But we got a lot of reports that's exactly where they were
stationing themselves earlier in the day.
Mr. Ney. We have observers too; maybe you do it differently
here.
In our state I have my original congressional district that
I served before we recarved four years ago. It has an 11
percent Republican index. More Republicans, 11 percent had a
very, very historically Democratic district.
When I first ran in 1994, I had a primary on the Republican
side. I am a Republican, and I had a primary and a lot of
people became alarmed because we were taking 69 percent of
union households. I had been a state senator, but some people
within the democratic party became so alarmed because I got
into a primary that democrats would switch in mass my home
county. I took it from 11 percent to 13 percent. I'm bragging
about one election where it went up--but there were things
going on where people walk up to the poll and say, ``I would
like a Republican ballot,'' and someone would immediately want
to challenge that. You can challenge in Ohio.
I don't think those things should be done. I don't know if
we can correct that federally which comes to your point.
We are trying to look at how HAVA is being implemented and
whether we can correct it. I complained in my own state. I
don't think you should say you want a Democratic or Republican
ballot. Maybe you should say who you voted for in the last
election.
Those are factors that are here and there. Why Ohio does
that, I don't know. If you want a democrat or republican
ballot, it should be given to you without having to say whether
or not you voted for that party in the last election? It makes
people nervous, I have seen it in a different way in my
elections.
Mr. O'Neill. We are an open primary state. You can pick
whichever party you want to vote for. It is a single ballot
vote, you can't only vote for one party so we do have open
challenge procedures.
Mr. Ney. We are open. You can walk in and you can be a
democrat in one election, and you can change in the primary,
but you are allowed to be questioned. Your switch is allowed to
be questioned at the local level, and I don't know if we should
cure that, and some of the things you address, at the federal
level, I don't know if we should cure it federally or if people
should have to move out behind a point of flags.
I think it is something to look at.
Mr. O'Neill. I don't know that there is a federal solution.
I wanted to bring it to the attention----
Mr. Ney. We appreciate that and down the road we will look
at doing some things at the federal level.
I am going to close with a couple of questions. I wanted to
ask Ms. Kaminski--when you question why we came here--we came
here because we have been to Ohio and we will go to other
states. Mr. Green wanted us to come here.
He has a bill pending in the Committee I chair, which we
have not made a decision on as a committee. But it is worth its
ID and now it has been discussed by Baker-Carter, so we came
here to listen, and, as you know, we have come here as an
investigatory body, but we did come here to listen. I think the
more flavor we get from Members and states that experienced
controversy benefits us.
A reporter said we just created a great bill on persons
that have disability issues and asked why it wasn't reported.
He said we don't report when the plane lands, we report when it
crashes. So in states that have had controversy, that's why we
went to Ohio and talk about going to Florida. That's why we
have come here.
I do have a question to ask you. The League has expressed
its concern about the voting practices in Ohio and our League
of Women's Voters filed a lawsuit after the election due to the
controversy of the election.
Did the League of Women's Voters ever consider filing a
lawsuit here in Wisconsin? Your counterparts did in Ohio.
Ms. Kaminski. No. Our legislative committee and our board
have not discussed that. That has not been a question for us.
Mr. Ney. Why do you think they filed in Ohio? Did you ever
hear.
Ms. Kaminski. I honestly can't answer the question. I would
have to find out from the Ohio League and then I could send
that to your office.
Mr. Ney. I was curious. I don't know if it mattered who won
or lost the election or whether the lawsuit----
Ms. Kaminski. No.
Mr. Ney. I should not ask the trick question, have you ever
disagreed with the Democratic party on election reform.
Ms. Kaminski. Yes we have.
Mr. Ney. That was a trick question. I told you in advance
it was a trick question. In Ohio we had a lot of controversy
and there was a lawsuit that was filed due to the nature of the
election which was not as close as Wisconsin.
I appreciate all of your comments and your thoughts today.
I want to thank my colleague, general lady, down there
working with issues, the other members, and Mr. Green for
inviting us.
This is something that is worth it and very healthy for the
process and something we can take back to Washington.
And on behalf of our Ranking Member, the great gentle lady
from California, I want to thank all of you for being here
today with us.
I ask unanimous consent that members and witnesses have
seven legislative days to submit materials for the record and
for the statements and materials to be entered in the
appropriate place in the record. Without objection, the
material will be entered.
I ask unanimous consent that staff be authorized to make
technical and conforming changes on all matters considered by
the Committee at today's hearing.
Without objection, so ordered. That will complete our
business for today. The hearing committee is hereby adjourned.
We appreciate the hospitality and friendliness of Milwaukee.
Thank you.
[Whereupon, the committee was adjourned.]