[House Hearing, 109 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
SHOULD MEXICO HOLD VETO POWER OVER
U.S. BORDER SECURITY DECISIONS?
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
AUGUST 17, 2006
__________
Serial No. 109-147
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
29-604 WASHINGTON : 2006
_____________________________________________________________________________
For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office
Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512�091800
Fax: (202) 512�092250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402�090001
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., Wisconsin, Chairman
HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
LAMAR SMITH, Texas RICK BOUCHER, Virginia
ELTON GALLEGLY, California JERROLD NADLER, New York
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina
DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California ZOE LOFGREN, California
WILLIAM L. JENKINS, Tennessee SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
CHRIS CANNON, Utah MAXINE WATERS, California
SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama MARTIN T. MEEHAN, Massachusetts
BOB INGLIS, South Carolina WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
JOHN N. HOSTETTLER, Indiana ROBERT WEXLER, Florida
MARK GREEN, Wisconsin ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York
RIC KELLER, Florida ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
DARRELL ISSA, California LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
MIKE PENCE, Indiana DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
STEVE KING, Iowa
TOM FEENEY, Florida
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
Philip G. Kiko, General Counsel-Chief of Staff
Perry H. Apelbaum, Minority Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
AUGUST 17, 2006
OPENING STATEMENT
Page
The Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., a Representative in
Congress from the State of Wisconsin, and Chairman, Committee
on the Judiciary............................................... 1
The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative in Congress
from the State of Texas, and Member, Committee on the Judiciary 3
WITNESSES
Mr. Leo Samaniego, Sheriff, El Paso County
Oral Testimony................................................. 6
Prepared Statement............................................. 8
Ms. Kathleen Walker, President-Elect, American Immigration
Lawyers Association
Oral Testimony................................................. 11
Prepared Statement............................................. 14
Mr. Richard Wiles, Chief of Police, El Paso Police Department
Oral Testimony................................................. 59
Prepared Statement............................................. 61
Ms. Alison Siskin, Senior Analyst, Congressional Research Service
Oral Testimony................................................. 77
Prepared Statement............................................. 80
Mr. Andrew Ramirez, Chairman, Friends of the Border Patrol
Oral Testimony................................................. 115
Prepared Statement............................................. 118
APPENDIX
Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
Prepared Statement by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a
Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, and Member,
Committee on the Judiciary..................................... 191
Letter from Texas State Senator Eliot Shapleigh.................. 193
Letter from Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund
and the National Council of La Raza............................ 207
Statement of Luis Figueroa, Legislative Staff Attorney, Mexican
American Legal Defense and Educational Fund.................... 209
Letter from the Committee on Migration of the U.S. Conference of
Catholic Bishops............................................... 216
``Mayor's Congreso on Immigration Reform Resolution''............ 218
SHOULD MEXICO HOLD VETO POWER OVER U.S. BORDER SECURITY DECISIONS?
----------
TUESDAY, AUGUST 17, 2006
House of Representatives,
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., at the
Chamizal National Memorial Park Theater, 800 South San Marcial,
El Paso, Texas, the Honorable F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr.
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The Committee on the Judiciary will
come to order. The Chair notes the presence of a quorum for the
purpose of taking testimony.
With me here today are Congressman John Hostettler of
Indiana, the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Immigration;
Congressman Louis Gohmert of the northeastern part of Texas;
Congressman Jack Kingston of Georgia; Congresswoman Sheila
Jackson Lee of Texas.
Congressman Sylvestre Reyes has got an engagement about
now, and when he is done with that engagement, he will come to
join us as well.
And I am Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, the
Chair of the House Judiciary Committee.
I would like to welcome everybody to the second field
hearing of the Committee on the subject of illegal immigration.
The purpose of this series of hearings is to examine the
challenges our nation currently faces with regard to illegal
immigration and the impact that the Reid-Kennedy immigration
bill passed by the Senate would have if it were to become law.
The Committee's first hearing examined the enormous cost
illegal immigration imposes upon American taxpayers and social
services. The focus of today's hearing is the issue of whether
the United States should be forced to prospectively consult
with a foreign government when taking steps to strengthen the
security of our borders, something that section 117 of the
Reid-Kennedy bill requires.
Today's hearing will also look at the social and fiscal
consequences of large-scale illegal immigration, such as drug
smuggling, alien trafficking and violent crime in El Paso and
the other cities and towns along the southwest border and
examine whether the Reid-Kennedy bill would address or merely
compound these problems.
A nation's sovereignty is defined in part by the ability to
control its borders. President Reagan once remarked that, ``A
nation without borders is not really a nation.''
The United States has historically derived strength from
its embrace of legal immigrants from all corners of the globe.
However, as a sovereign nation, the U.S. must also maintain the
sole power to determine who may enter its borders and under
what conditions.
When more than a half million individuals enter the country
illegally or fail to abide by the terms of their entry on an
annual basis, it not only erodes U.S. sovereignty but presents
a clear threat to American citizens in the post-9/11 world.
America's southern neighbor, Mexico, recognizes the
importance of being able to control its borders and accordingly
has very tough laws and practices to limit the entry of non-
Mexicans into that country. One might question, however,
whether they respect the United States' right to control its
own borders. According to a New York Times article published on
May 25th of this year, then candidate and now newly elected
President Felipe Calderon stated defiantly, ``The more walls
they build, the more walls we will jump.''
If enacted, the Reid-Kennedy bill would require that before
the U.S. can construct any additional fencing and related
border security structures along our southern borders, we must
consult with Federal, State and local Mexican officials. The
mandate in the Senate bill represents an unprecedented
surrender of America's sovereignty. Moreover, it defies common
sense to require that proposals to strengthen our border
security be vetted by the same officials who have actively
encouraged the exodus of their nationals across our southern
border.
In addition to illegal immigrants who cross unprotected
sectors of our southern border in search of improved economic
conditions, the lack of a border fence allows those involved in
drug trafficking and human smuggling operations, as well as
other violent criminal aliens, virtually unobstructed movement
across the border.
Despite the daily threat that this criminal element poses
to cities and towns along the border and the fact that local
law enforcement officials are often outmanned and outgunned,
they faithfully perform their duty to fight such criminal
activity as best they can. As a result, there are so many
criminal aliens in the jails of El Paso and other border towns
that city budgets are strained to pay for their detention.
H.R. 4437, the House-passed immigration reform bill that I
authored along with Chairman Peter King of the Homeland
Security Committee, authorizes $100 million a year to help
border community law enforcement agencies cope with the cost of
crime committed by illegal immigrants and the Mexican
professional criminals. The Reid-Kennedy bill has no such
provision.
Finally, the Reid-Kennedy bill would prohibit local
sheriffs and police from assisting with the vast majority of
immigration enforcement that's civil in nature. This would
deprive local law enforcement of vital tools they need to
govern their communities and deny the Department of Homeland
Security the vital assistance it could otherwise count on in
enforcing our immigration laws. H.R. 4437 takes the opposite
and better approach of clarifying that local law enforcement
can voluntarily assist in the enforcement of all of our
immigration laws.
Before I recognize Representative Jackson Lee for opening
remarks, I would like to remind Members and witnesses that this
hearing is being conducted consistent with all applicable House
and Committee Rules of Procedure. Therefore, I ask witnesses to
limit their remarks to 5 minutes of oral testimony and will
recognize Members for 5 minutes of questioning, alternating
between minority and majority Members seeking recognition.
In addition, because we have Members of Congress present
today who are not Members of the Judiciary Committee, I ask
unanimous consent that they be permitted to participate in
today's hearing, and this specifically applies to Congressman
Kingston and Congressman Reyes.
And without objection, so ordered.
At this point, I ask unanimous consent that all opening
statements be included in the record and recognize the
Gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee, for her opening
remarks.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank
you very much for holding this hearing in El Paso, Texas. I
know, on behalf of Congressman Reyes, whose district we are in,
we are appreciative of that. An opportunity has come to this
community, as it has come to Houston and as it has come to
Laredo.
However, my disappointment in all of the hearings at--that
we have had the opportunity to participate in is that they have
not been hearings to seek the input of the community at hand,
whether they are proponents or opponents of the question before
us. The hearings, of course, have been held by different
Committees. But we have come to different cities under the
pretense of listening to the American people. And we are not
listening to the American people, for we are not allowing a
public input to these proceedings.
I am delighted, however, and I thank you, Mr. Chairman, as
I understand you were able to visit the Mexican/El Paso or
Texas border and had an opportunity to see Border Patrol agents
and others working collaboratively and cooperatively together.
Let us be very clear, the Chairman who held the hearing in
Houston yesterday made it very clear on the record, ``We're
here to promote and pump up H.R. 4437, the House bill.'' But
the question is never raised, when you're here to pump up and
support H.R. 4437, that that legislation creates felony status
for millions and millions of those within--inside the U.S.
border. That is really the question that should be answered.
All other questions could be answered in the reconciliation of
the Conference Committee of which we are not holding.
These hearings are out of regular order. These hearings
would not necessarily have to be held. They've never been held.
Hearings are usually held before bills are passed. And so we
start today on a premise that is incorrect. There is no such
thing as a Reid-Kennedy bill. There is a Senate bill that has
the support of individuals like Senator Hagel, individuals like
Senator John McCain, Senator Specter. It is a bipartisan bill.
But there are elements of the House bill that are worthy of
reconciling with the Senate bill. Let's get to work.
The House immigration reform bill, the Border Immigration
Enforcement, H.R. 4437, was passed on December 16th, 2005. The
Senate immigration reform bill, the Comprehensive Immigration
Reform Act of 2006 was passed on May 25th. And as I've just
said, now is time for a conference.
H.R. 4437, however, was introduced on a Tuesday--that's the
House bill--and without a single hearing before the full
Judiciary Committee, it was marked up, moved to the floor and
passed the following Friday. This was done without hearings and
without any input from the minority party endorsing the bill.
Even though Republicans hold the White House and the
majority in both the House of Representatives and the Senate,
they refuse to go to conference and develop a real immigration
reform package that would be meaningful and bring about long-
term results. Instead, they are stalling. They stalled before
Congress broke for the August district work period and they're
continuing to stall. Republican-controlled Congress is simply
doing nothing, nothing about the 12 million people in this
country using false identifiers, nothing to better secure the
border, nothing to protect the jobs of American workers by
implementing a real employee identification system, nothing to
help our Border Patrol agents, nothing to change the fact that
our immigration system is inadequate and broken. Simply
nothing.
And when I went to the San Diego hearing----
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentlewoman will suspend.
The Chair recognizes that all those who have joined us in
the audience today and welcomes that. This is a very emotional
issue. There are strongly held views on both sides of the
issue.
People who are witnesses and Members of the Committee are
going to say something that many of you in the audience agree
with strongly and many of you disagree with strongly. The next
witness or the next Member will probably do the opposite.
Now, in order to conduct this hearing properly and in
accordance with House rules, which will specifically prohibit
demonstrations of any kind in the audience, either in support
or in opposition to the rules. It's the Chair's duty to
maintain order at these hearings and to ask all of you to be
respectful of the statements that are made, those of which you
agree with and those of which you disagree with.
I would point out that Rule XI(2)(k)(4) of the House of
Representatives provides, ``that the Chairman may punish
breaches of order and decorum by censor and exclusion from the
hearings, and the Committee may cite the offender to the House
for contempt of Congress.''
The Chair will use this authority. It hopes he will not
have to. And I would ask everybody in the audience to be
respectful of statements that are made, whether you disagree
with the statements or agree with them.
The gentlewoman from Texas has a minute and 10 seconds left
and may proceed.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And I beg to indulge these individual
citizens, Mr. Chairman, but I thank you for your words.
Let me finish by simply saying, in San Diego, I held up the
bars of Sailor Perez that was given to me on my journey to
Iraq, in the theater protecting those who live in the United
States. Sailor Perez has an immigrant background.
The audience in San Diego--anti-immigrant audience on,
unfortunately, one of our military bases, booed, and I was
cited as demagoguing by some of the alleged staff of this
majority.
Let me make it very clear, when I hold up the bars of an
individual who is on the front lines who is an immigrant, I
hold them up in great respect. And I ask the question, why are
we demagoguing reform of the immigration system? Why don't we
go to conference? Let's do something.
Let's have comprehensive immigration reform, border
security and a pathway to citizenship, decency on behalf of
this sailor and many others, who are on the front lines, whose
immigrant background says they love America.
I yield back my time, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The time of the gentlewoman has
expired. Now, the Chair doesn't want to have to repeat what he
just said about what the rules of the House require. I would
ask the audience to be respectful of the rules of the House,
whether you agree with what is said or disagree with what is
said.
Now, we have 5 witnesses today. Three were selected by the
Republicans, and two were selected by the Democrats.
The first witness will be Sheriff Leo Samaniego, who has
served as the Sheriff of El Paso County since he was first
elected in 1984. Prior to his election as Sheriff, Leo
Samaniego served in the El Paso Police Department for 28 years.
He is a 1972 graduate of the FBI National Academy. He serves as
a member of the Texas Crime Prevention Association, American
Legion Post 74, and as chairman of the El Paso Area Community
Justice Council. He has been the recipient of numerous awards,
including the League of Women Voters Bravo Award, and the City
of El Paso Conquistador Award.
Dr. Alison Siskin is a senior analyst at the Congressional
Research Service where she specializes in immigration
legislation. Her immigration expertise covers legislation
dealing with alien detention and removal, criminal aliens,
interior investigations, international adoptions, non-citizen
eligibility for public benefits and the Visa Waiver Program.
Dr. Siskin received her bachelor's degree in applied
mathematics from Brown University and a Ph.D. In sociology from
Stanford University.
Andrew Ramirez serves as the chairman of the Friends of the
Border Patrol, a non-profit organization that was created to
support the U.S. Border Patrol and their agents while improving
the quality of life for border residents. Founded in August
2004, the FBP works with and supports law enforcement officials
across the United States. It continues to investigate Border
Patrol sectors along the border and in Puerto Rico.
Chief Richard Wiles has served in the El Paso Police
Department since 1982 and was appointed Chief of Police in
2004. Prior to joining the police force, Chief Wiles also
served in the El Paso Fire Department. He is a graduate of the
University of Texas at El Paso. And among other post-graduate
degrees and certifications, he's a graduate of the FBI's
National Academy.
Kathleen Walker is currently the president-elect of the
American Immigration Lawyers Association. She serves as
chairperson of the Immigration and Nationality Law Board
Certification Exam Committee for the State Bar of Texas as well
as on the advisory committee. She has served on the standing
committee of the State Bar of Texas on immigration and
nationality law and has served on the Board of Governors of
AILA for several terms. She is currently the chairperson of the
Immigration Department of the El Paso, Texas-based law firm
Kemp Smith.
Would all of you please stand and raise your right hand and
take the oath.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Let the record show that all of the
witnesses answered in the affirmative.
Before I recognize the witnesses for opening remarks, I
would like to remind the Members and witnesses that this
hearing is being conducted consistent with all applicable House
and Committee Rules of Procedure. Therefore, I ask the
witnesses to limit their remarks of oral testimony to 5 minutes
and will recognize Members for 5 minutes of questioning,
alternating between minority and majority Members seeking
recognition.
So Sheriff Samaniego, you're first up.
TESTIMONY OF LEO SAMANIEGO, SHERIFF, EL PASO COUNTY
Mr. Samaniego. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, welcome to El Paso.
As law enforcement officers on the border with Mexico, our
primary concern is the welfare and safety of our citizens and
our nation. The terrorism threat to our country is very real.
It is unfortunate that most Americans have already forgotten
the fear, the terror and the anger that we experienced on 9/11.
The majority of illegal aliens that come across our border
are individuals looking for a better life. Unfortunately, there
are a large number of criminals also entering among them.
Border control must be a priority.
Defective border security and illegal immigration, which is
the responsibility of the Federal Government, does not lessen
the burden being placed on border law enforcement agencies that
are already overburdened, understaffed and underfunded. Law
enforcement and criminal justice expenses associated with
illegal immigration exceed $89 million annually for border
counties.
El Paso is one of the leading gateway cities for the
transshipment of narcotics, as well as a staging area for
illegal aliens. There are at least five powerful drug
trafficking organizations operating in and through the Juarez/
El Paso corridor. Hundreds of smaller groups assist the major
organizations in their smuggling, stashing, transporting,
distribution and money laundering efforts. Mexican drug cartels
are quietly taking over Columbia's drug trafficking rings and
are becoming the world's largest criminal enterprises.
Mexico does a lot of counter-drug operations and several
major traffickers have been arrested, but you do not hear of
any seizures or major arrests along the U.S./Mexico border. I
have long suspected that drug traffickers and alien smugglers
are in control of the border, and not the Mexican Army or law
enforcement agencies. The economic conditions in Mexico and the
long history of corruption of law enforcement agencies at all
levels of government make it easy for drug cartels to operate.
Our government should do whatever needs to be done to take
control of our border.
Senate bill 2611 requires that Federal, State and locals
meet with their Mexican counterparts before building either a
fence or installing barriers. Mexico strongly opposes the
erection of any fence on any part of the border. This is
tantamount to a homeowner asking a burglar if he approves of
the homeowner installing bars on his windows. It is not in the
best interest of the Mexican government for the United States
to improve security on the border.
Section 607 of the House Resolution 4437 provides $100
million for border county sheriffs from Texas to California to
hire, train and equip additional deputies. It also implements
Operation Linebacker, proposed by the Texas Border Sheriffs
Coalition, to form a second line of defense and protect our
border.
One step away from the Federal line is our jurisdiction.
When drug loads and illegal immigrants get past the Border
Patrol, when a crime is committed against a resident or an
illegal alien, we, the sheriffs, have to deal with the
consequences. We urge approval of section 607.
The Senate bill authorizes only $50 million for any agency
within 100 miles of either the Canadian or Mexican border. In
my opinion, the money would be so diluted because of the large
number of agencies involved, that it could turn out to be a
waste of money.
In January of 2006, Governor Rick Perry decided to provide
funding to the 16 Texas border sheriffs to implement Operation
Linebacker. The result of Operation Linebacker has been
outstanding in regards to crime deterrence, drug seizures,
arrests made and citizen satisfaction.
El Paso County Sheriff's office has been criticized and
accused of enforcing immigration law by several misguided and
misinformed groups.
House Resolution 4437 clarifies that States have the
inherent authority to enforce all immigration laws. The Senate
bill is similar, but also states that States have inherent
authority to enforce only the criminal provisions of
immigration law. The assistance of State and local law
enforcement agencies can mean the difference between success
and failure in enforcing immigration laws. The more than
650,000 officers nationwide represent a massive force
multiplier. House Resolution 4437 would give us all the
authority we need to enforce immigration law.
I wasn't elected to fail in my responsibility to uphold the
law. The Federal Government has failed to provide a response to
the threats along the border.
The law-abiding, tax-paying, rural residents in my county
demand equal protection from those who have no regard for human
life or human dignity. They insist on an immediate response to
escalating threats by drug and human traffickers. They pay
taxes to live free of intimidation.
I will not fail them. The question is, will you continue to
fail them?
Thank you, sir.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. I thank you, Sheriff.
[The prepared statement Mr. Samniego follows:]
Prepared Statement of Sheriff Leo Samaniego
INTRODUCTION
Chairman Sensenbrenner, Chairman Hostettler, members of the
Committee on the Judiciary, welcome to El Paso and thank you for
allowing me to present my testimony this morning on border problems. As
the Chairman of the Texas Border Sheriff's Coalition, thank you for all
you have done on our behalf.
As Law Enforcement officers on the border with Mexico, our primary
concern is the welfare and safety of our citizens and our nation. We,
the Border Sheriff's Coalition, have done everything possible to bring
awareness to the leaders of our state and our nation. The terrorism
threat to our country is very real, it is unfortunate that most
Americans have already forgotten the fear, terror and anger we
experienced on September 11, 2001. God forbid that we experience
another day like that, but if we do, I do not want anyone pointing a
finger at me and telling me I did not do my job. The truth is that the
Southern border is the weak link in our national security.
TERRORISM
Intelligence indicates that terrorist organizations are
increasingly probing the U.S./Mexico border. The reports suggest that
terrorists are aware of the porous nature of the Southwest border. The
proximity to the border provides a fertile environment for terrorist/
extremist networks to smuggle humans, deadly weapons, and other
resources into the United States. The large international border
creates tremendous smuggling opportunities for terrorists and is
fertile ground for recruitment and development of. support networks for
terrorist organizations. The Mexican drug trafficking and human
smuggling organizations use their knowledge of the border to assist
terrorist cell members in their attempts to exploit the United States
The multi-cultural aspect of the border area also appeals to the
terrorists. There are many nationalities, many of them transients, who
live and interact in the border setting. This provides the terrorists
the opportunity to blend into the community. There is also a
substantial amount of established Middle Eastern businesses and
although, the majority of these businesses are legitimate, some of them
generate a large amount of money that needs to be monitored so that it
does not become a terrorist resource. The southwest border may not be a
priority target for a terrorist attack, but it is prime territory for
the cultivation, recruitment, transportation, and stashing of terrorist
cell members.
Example: In January 2006, the FBI arrested in Houston, Texas South
Korean fugitive Tongsun Park who is accused of helping the regime of
Saddam Hussein in the Oil for Food Program. It is alleged by the
Mexican press that Park was in Mexico prior to his arrest. Again, this
shows a link between terrorism, Mexico, and the U. S.
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
The majority of illegal aliens sneaking across our border are
honest, hard working individuals looking for a better life and an
opportunity to better their economic situation. I certainly do not
blame them, Mexico has done nothing in order to improve their lot, but
there are a great number of criminals, gang members and yes, potential
terrorist, also entering among them. The Border Patrol and local law
enforcement officers have a tremendous responsibility to make sure that
these individuals are deterred or apprehended before they can do harm
to our country. The well organized flow of illegal immigrants coming
across our border must be stopped. Border control must be a priority.
What do we do with the eleven or more millions already here can wait
until a logical & reasonable solution can be formulated. Amnesty only
fuels the desire of millions more to come in illegally and hope that
this practice will be repeated.
The fact that border security and illegal immigration is the
responsibility of the federal government does not lessen the burden
being placed on border law enforcement agencies that are already
overburdened, understaffed and most certainly under funded. A 2000 Law
Enforcement Management & Statistics Survey, indicates that the number
of full time officers per 100,000 residents for agencies in border
counties is 62% of the national average (157 officers per 100,000
residents versus 251 officers per 100,000 residents).Texas spends the
least per agency in border counties, averaging less than 90% of what
the non-border agencies in the state receive. One good thing came out
of the survey; the border counties total arrest rates are 16% higher
than the national rate per 100,000 residents.
COST
Border communities continue to incur significant costs due to the
lack of adequate border security. A 2001 study by the United States/
Mexico border counties Coalition found that law enforcement and
criminal justice expenses associated with illegal immigration exceed 89
million dollars annually for the southwest border counties.
While the federal government provides states and localities
assistance in covering costs related to detention of certain criminal
aliens and the prosecution of federal drug cases, local law enforcement
along the border are provided no assistance in covering such expenses
and must use their limited resources to combat drug trafficking,
private property, trespassing, and other border related crimes.
NARCOTICS OVERVIEW
El Paso, unfortunately, is one of the leading gateway cities for
the transshipment of narcotics as well as a staging area for illegal
aliens. There are at least five powerful drug trafficking organizations
(DTO's) operating in and through the Juarez/El Paso corridor. Hundreds
of smaller groups assist the major organizations in their smuggling,
stashing, transporting, distribution and money laundering efforts.
According to The El Paso Intelligence Center, 65% of all narcotics sold
in the U.S. market enter the country through the Southwest border.
Violence associated with Drug Trafficking Organizations continues
escalating as they attempt to gain or maintain control of their areas
of operation throughout the border. For example, Marcos Arturo Nazar
Contreras was appointed the Interim Regional Coordinator of the
Chihuahua State Investigations agency on May 25. On Sunday, August 8,
2006, he was killed when his vehicle was ambushed by gunmen in the City
of Juarez, across the border from El Paso. An autopsy found thirty
seven (37) gunshot wounds. His agency had recently been overhauled
because of allegations that the leadership was linked to drug
traffickers. This was much more than an execution, it sends strong
message not to mess with the cartel.
Efforts to secure our border against terrorism have not curbed the
use of the Southwest border as the most significant gateway of drugs
being smuggled into the United States. The enforcement efforts in other
major cities are being increased because we are not stopping the drugs
here. If illicit organizations can bring in tons of narcotics through
this region and work a distribution network that spans the entire
country, then they can bring in the resources for terrorism as well. If
illegal aliens can be smuggled through here in truck loads, than
terrorist organizations can also covertly smuggle the people to carry
out their plans. On the Southwest border, the same organizations
involved in smuggling drugs have also been found to smuggle illegal
aliens.
According to a Miami Herald story dated 3-15-97, Mexican Drug
Cartels are quietly taking over Colombia's Drug trafficking rings and
are becoming the world's largest criminal enterprises. Colombian
Intelligence documents obtained by the Herald and interviews with top
U.S. Law Enforcement officials, Mexico's cartels have begun financing
Columbian drug shipments, taking over smuggling routes and managing
cocaine distribution rings in major U.S. cities.
I know that Mexico does a lot of counter drug operations and
several major drug traffickers have been arrested throughout the
country but you do not hear of any seizures or major arrests along the
U.S. / Mexico border. I have long suspected that drug traffickers and
alien smugglers are in control of the border and not the Mexican army
or law enforcement agencies. While researching the matter, I found out
that in March of 1997 during Senator Joe Biden's Committee hearing on
NAFTA, carried live on C-span, Mr. Christopher Whalen, a Washington
based financial expert on Mexico, testified that:
1) Over a 100 billion worth of illegal drugs cross the U.S. /
Mexico border every year
2) Mexico cut a deal with the drug cartels. In return for
depositing Cartel monies in cash strapped Mexican banks,
cartels were given free use of Mexican states along the Mex/
Texas border.
3) Mexico nets $15 billion a year from this drug trafficking
arrangement.
The economic conditions in Mexico and the long history of
corruption of law enforcement agencies, at all levels of government,
make it easy for the drug cartels to operate.
BORDER SECURITY
I am of the humble opinion that the U.S. Government should be able
and willing to build fences and install barriers anywhere on our side
of the border, as approved by the House on December 16, 2005 when it
passed H.R. 4437, in order to curtail drug & human smuggling and
potential terrorist incursions. I believe that our government should do
whatever needs to be done in order to take control of our border. The
Senate bill (S 2611) requires that federal, state and locals meet with
their Mexican counterparts before building either a fence or installing
barriers. Do they have to agree? I can tell you that Mexico vehemently
opposes the erection of any fence on any part of the border. This is
tantamount to a home owner asking a burglar if he approves of the home
owner installing bars on his windows. Our border must be secured if we
are to truly have national security. It is not in the best interest of
the Mexican government for the United States to improve security on the
border. Mexico has not respected the boundary between our country and
theirs, why should they be given a say so on what we need to do to
protect ourselves?
On Thursday, November 17, 2005, Representative John Culberson (R-
TX) and Representative Silvestre Reyes (D-TX) introduced H.R. 4360. The
Border Law Enforcement Act, which will provide authority and direct
funding for Border County Sheriffs to support Border Patrol agents in
securing our Southern border. The bill implements ``Operation
Linebacker'' proposed by the Texas Border Sheriff's Coalition to form a
second line of defense to protect our border from Texas to California.
On December 7, 2005, House Judiciary Committee Chairman James
Sensenbrenner (R-WI) introduced H.R. 4437, The Border Protection,
Antiterrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005. H.R. 4360,
the Border Law Enforcement Act, became Section 607. H.R. 4437 was
approved by the house on December 16, 2005.
Section 607 of H.R. 4437 will provide $100 million for Border
County Sheriffs from Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California to be
able to hire, train and equip additional deputies and build additional
detention space to house illegal aliens pending deportation. Deputies
will not be Border Patrol or Immigration Agents but will be assigned to
patrol in the vicinity of the border in order to deter Drug
trafficking, human smuggling, gang related crimes and other illegal
activity related to the border. The members of the Texas Border
Sheriffs Coalition have a stake in the security of our border;
1) One step away from the federal line is our jurisdiction.
2) When a drug trafficker manages to evade the Border Patrol
and gets his load across it is our problem.
3) When a Coyote gets his group of undocumented immigrants
into our communities and abandons them it is our problem.
4) When a crime is committed against a law abiding resident or
against an undocumented immigrant, we the Sheriffs have to deal
with the consequences.
We urge the Senate to approve Section 607 of H.R. 4437. We have the
ability and desire to protect our country, give us the means to do it
with!
Senate bill (S-2611) authorizes $50 million for any agency within
100 miles of either the northern (5000 miles) or southern borders (2000
miles) with preference given to counties and cities with populations
below 50,000. There are virtually hundreds of counties & municipalities
that would be eligible to apply for funding and in my opinion, none of
them would really get what they needed to make a difference. In other
words, the funding would be so diluted that in the long run this would
be a waste of money. Congressman John Culberson has made it clear that
the majority of drugs and illegal aliens are coming through the
Southwest border and not the Canadian border.
In January of 2006, Governor Rick Perry, after evaluating the plan,
decided that he was going to provide funding to the 16 Texas Border
Sheriffs to implement Operation Linebacker pending the final outcome of
H.R.4437 and the Senate bill (S-2611). The results of Operation
Linebacker have been outstanding in regards to crime deterrence, drug
seizures, stolen property recovered, arrests made and, most important,
citizen satisfaction and peace of mind. . Consider the fact that
Operation Del Rio a three week long law enforcement blitz (month of
June 2006) saturated a five border county zone with local, state and
federal law enforcement personnel and equipment. This initiative
resulted in a decrease in 76% in Part One Crime (Homicides, forcible
rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, larcenies, thefts, motor
vehicle thefts) in those border communities.
My dear friend Val Verde County Sheriff A. D'Wayne Jernigan whose
agency participated in this program reports ``. . .the amount of the
thefts last year (in June 2005) was $91,184.00. This year, it was only
$1,299.00. It has definitely had impact.''
We live and work under unique circumstances along the border. I'm
glad to finally see our U.S. Attorney general recognize this. In an
Associated Press article written by Tim Kote and published in the El
Paso Times on Wednesday, August 2, 2006. United States Attorney General
Alberto Gonzales announced the addition of federal prosecutors to
handle immigration-related offenses and drug trafficking in states
along the border with Mexico. Gonzales is quoted as saying ``There is
some correlation.'' ``Obviously smuggling occurs in connection with
illegal immigration. Also there is a serious drug trafficking problem
on our southern border.''
With that in mind, the El Paso County Sheriff's Office has been
critized and accused of enforcing immigration law by several Human
Rights groups. We are aware that we can only stop someone based on
reasonable suspicion and make an arrest based on probable cause. Under
the provision of H.R. 4437, subsection 240 D was added to the
Immigration & Nationality Act (INA) to clarify that states have the
inherent authority to enforce immigration law. The Senate bill (S-2611)
is very similar to H.R. 4437, but would add a new sub-section 240 D to
the INA to clarify that states have the inherent authority to enforce
only the criminal provisions of immigration laws. Law Enforcement
officers need to know exactly what they can and what they can not do in
regards to immigration law.
The assistance of state and local law enforcement agencies can mean
the difference between success and failure in enforcing the immigration
laws. The more than 650,000 officers nationwide represent a massive
force multiplier. H.R. 4437 would give us all the authority we need to
enforce immigration law.
CONCLUSION
During the 9/11 Commission hearings, former National Coordinator
for Counterterrorism Richard Clarke stated, ``To them who are here in
the room, to those who are watching on television, your government
failed you, those entrusted with protecting you failed you, and I
failed you. We tried hard, but that doesn't matter because we failed.''
These statements were made publicly. It focused attention to the
shortfalls of the government and extended the responsibility for
homeland security to every public service agency in the country.
I was elected Sheriff of this great community. I wasn't elected to
fail in my responsibility to uphold the law. I have been put in a
difficult position in regards to border security. The federal
government has failed to provide a measured response to the threat
along the border. The silent majority, the law abiding tax paying rural
residents in my county demand equal law enforcement protection from
those who have no regard for human life or human dignity. They insist
on an immediate response to the escalating threats by terrorist cells
and drug and human trafficking organizations. They pay taxes to live
free of intimidation. I will not fail them . . . the question is will
you continue to fail them?
Chairman Sensebrenner, members of the Committee on the Judiciary,
thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to testify before
this Honorable Body.
May our Lord bless you and give you wisdom.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Ms. Walker.
TESTIMONY OF KATHLEEN WALKER, PRESIDENT-ELECT, AMERICAN
IMMIGRATION LAWYERS ASSOCIATION
Ms. Walker. Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking Member Sheila
Jackson Lee and the rest of the distinguished Members of the
Committee and our audience, thank you for the opportunity to
provide this testimony this morning.
We have already had my bio. Let me go ahead and go into
some of the comments I hope to make today.
First of all, as to the hearing title, I'm perplexed
because there is no veto power provided in section 117 of
Senate bill 2611. In fact, what it merely provides is what we
commonly do here on the border, and that is consult with our
neighbors across the way.
In fact, that consultation has led to all sorts of positive
results. I want to at least read into this particular record
what section 117 specifically provides, that is, ``to solicit
the views of affected communities, lessen tensions, foster
greater understanding and stronger cooperation on this and
other important security issues of mutual concern.''
The history in El Paso is one of consultation; the U.S./
Mexico Border Health Commission regarding health issues that we
share, the International Boundary and Water Commission
regarding environmental issues. We have several firsts in the
State of Texas based on cooperation with our Federal agencies
here dealing with security: The first dedicated commuter lane
in the State of Texas, the first fast and secure trade lane in
the State of Texas. That is due to our cooperation and work
with our neighbors across the Rio Grande, as recently as our
floods in the past few weeks.
To sit here and tell me that it is somehow a problem to
consult, to me, the question is, how can one effectively
achieve any objective without proper consultation with your
neighbors across the way? I would no sooner build a fence than
consult with my neighbor. I'm sure all of us would do so.
Another comment here concerning what we are talking about
as to local law enforcement and what H.R. 4437 really provides.
I certainly respect Sheriff Samaniego and am certainly grateful
for all of his hard work, but section 607 of the 4437 bill
talks about sheriffs dealing with people who are not lawfully
present in the U.S. As an immigration lawyer, lawful presence
right now is tied to a number of different issues. I can fail
to file an AR-11, change of address card, I can fail to have
the appropriate number of hours as a student, all of that can
be a status violation under immigration law. There's a whole
series of memos trying to interpret what ``unlawful presence''
means.
This is not a simplistic analysis. Immigration law is
complex. And to sit here and say that it is simplistic to see
some sort of demarcated brand of U, undocumented, on someone's
forehead is fallacious.
Our National Crime Information Center database tried to
throw in information regarding overstays, and then having some
local law enforcement agent try to figure out whether or not
someone's lawfully here leads to racial profiling, it leads to
erroneous arrests of U.S. citizens. We are not at any point
right now, concerning the use of NCIC, to be able to figure out
whether or not someone's lawfully here.
I've been practicing immigration law for 21 years. I'm
still learning. It's still ever changing.
The bottom line regarding this hearing today is asking you
to go back to the hill, asking you to come up with a real
solution to the issue here. That solution involves two parts,
two sides of a coin. We have enforcement. We've dealt with it
for the past 10 years concerning Border Patrol, and increase in
enforcement has not resulted in a decrease in illegal
migration.
Let's go ahead and resolve this, as I know that people on
the Hill are capable of doing. We resolve it by addressing
employer needs. There's a recent quote last week, Texas
Producers Association, basically said--a comparison to Rome
burning, ``The produce is going to burn in Texas while Congress
fails to take action on effective immigration reform to address
our employment needs.'' We are only asking for something
rational, something logical, something that indeed gives us
true security on this border.
Our history here is one of cooperation, of effectiveness,
of real results. We have been able to achieve that by taking
the hard issues head on.
I'm very concerned that we are looking at a security-light
approach with H.R. 4437. The hard one is to go ahead and figure
out how we deal with the undocumented in the United States, the
undocumented that, indeed, if we want to look at Social
Security Suspense Fund, have put billions of dollars that are
basically supporting those of us who are retiring in the United
States.
There is some logic here. And the logic here is to go ahead
and take effective action and combine immigration reform with
enforcement. And then I hope that you will hold all of us
accountable for achieving that. We certainly expect that here
in El Paso, and we have been able to achieve many positive
results by doing effective action together.
Thank you for the time.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Walker follows:]
Prepared Statement of Kathleen Campbell Walker
ATTACHMENTS
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Chief Wiles.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD WILES, CHIEF OF POLICE, EL PASO POLICE
DEPARTMENT
Mr. Wiles. Honorable Chairman and Members, thank you for
the opportunity to be here with you today. Welcome to El Paso.
I hope, while you've been here, you've had the opportunity to
enjoy our great city, even though it's been raining a little
bit.
El Paso is immersed in tradition and culture, but its
uniqueness comes from being the largest city in the United
States on an international border.
But we are connected in many ways. Each day, tens of
thousands of vehicles and pedestrians move across one of three
international bridges between the two cities. Much of this
traffic is attributed to NAFTA, shoppers, students, workers, et
cetera, traveling between the two countries. It is estimated
that the economy of El Paso is favorably impacted by tens of
millions of dollars each year because of Mexican shoppers.
There is no getting around it, our cities are economically tied
to each other in many ways.
But much more important than economics is the issue of
families. The Rio Grande divides much more than our two
countries, it divides families. Much of the traffic on our
bridges is simply everyday people doing all they can to
maintain their family relationships. It goes without saying
that many United States citizens living in El Paso are
originally from Mexico or descendents from individuals who have
migrated from Mexico.
According to the 2000 U.S. census, over 78 percent of the
population of El Paso is made up of Hispanics or Latinos. 73
percent speak a language other than English at home. And 27
percent of the residents in El Paso are foreign-born. That
makes us very unique.
And it makes the situation very difficult when the Federal
Government is talking about immigration and immigration reform
and trying to tie it in to problems that other cities are
having around our nation. We are no strangers to illegal
immigration issues.
It's been said, and I agree wholeheartedly, that most
illegal immigrants are coming into the United States to seek a
better life for themselves and their families. And we do know
that we have some that come here for criminal intent. There are
drug smugglers. There are human trafficking that occurs. There
are criminals that take advantage of the illegal immigrants and
commit crimes against them. And those are issues that we have
to deal with.
The Federal Government is clearly facing a major challenge
when dealing with issues of immigration and immigration reform.
There must be a constant balance of ensuring that while the
flow of illegal immigration is curtailed, those engaged in
lawful migration for purposes of trade and our personal matters
are unimpeded.
There's two issues that I want to comment about today, and
the first one is the issue of what we've discussed about, are
illegal immigrants coming over here to commit crimes. I just
want to point out that El Paso, as I've mentioned, has many
immigrants, both illegal and legal. And El Paso has been named
the second safest city in the United States with a population
of over 500,000. We've had that position for two or 3 years
now. And prior to that, we were the third safest city. This is
a research--an independent research conducted by Morgan Quitno
Press. It includes all the major cities--all the cities in the
United States and then separates the major cities over 500,000.
If it were true that the majority of illegal immigrants
were coming over here to commit crimes, why is El Paso so safe?
You would think here, more than anywhere, we would have
significant crime problems within our city limits, and we do
not have those problems.
The other issue is in regards to, should local law
enforcement be enforcing immigration law? As the Chief of
Police of the City of El Paso, I am a member of the Major City
Chiefs, which is a leader in the law enforcement field and
represents the local law enforcement community. It is comprised
of 57 law enforcement executives of the largest police
organizations in the United States and Canada.
In June of 2006, the Major City Chiefs adopted a position
specific to the issue of enforcement of immigration laws by
local police agencies. Because of all the issues that's
involved in a city such as El Paso, I was asked to serve on a
committee with eight other high-ranking police executives,
including the Sheriff of Los Angeles County, the Chief of
Police from Los Angeles Police Department, Detroit, New York,
Seattle, Tucson and Miami-Dade. This committee ultimately
submitted a proposal that was adopted by the Major City Chiefs
as the official stance of the entire organization. And I have
submitted that proposal for your review.
The issues are numerous, but the main issues I want to
point out is lack of resources. We are struggling to retain and
recruit officers just to do the daily police and quality-of-
life issues that our community expects of us. To expect us to
take on another issue, such as immigration, and to find the
time to be able to do that, we just don't--we just don't have
that time. We don't have the resources.
Secondly, immigration law is very complex. They involve
both civil and criminal statutes. The Federal Government and
its designated agencies under the Department of Justice and
Department of Homeland Security have clear authority and
responsibility to regulate and enforce immigration laws.
The most important one, though, that I would like to point
out is, what makes El Paso safe is community policing and the
trust and partnerships that we've built with the members of our
community. We have a significant immigrant community. In
addressing crime and disorder at the macro level, we cannot
simply police around undocumented immigrants. We need the trust
and cooperation of victims and witnesses, whether they are
documented or not.
I would like to just close in saying that the communities
across our nations are diverse, and many are dealing with a
vast amount of social problems and ills, some caused by illegal
immigration and some not. Since this issue is one that squarely
falls within the realm of jurisdiction of the Federal
Government, it's not even proper to ask communities to consider
this issue as a cause of dissension and friction in communities
that have other pressing problems to deal with. The United
States government needs to address this issue at the Federal
level.
Understanding that while State and local agencies should
not be burdened with the enforcement of immigration laws, we
stand ready to assist in areas involving criminal activity.
Thank you.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Thank you, Chief.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Wiles follows:]
Prepared Statement of Richard D. Wiles
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Dr. Siskin.
TESTIMONY OF ALISON SISKIN, SENIOR ANALYST, CONGRESSIONAL
RESEARCH SERVICE
Ms. Siskin. Thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking
Member Jackson Lee and distinguished Members of the Committee
for the invitation to appear before you today.
My testimony will focus on the financial impact of illegal
immigration on border communities and several of the
immigration enforcement related provisions in H.R. 4437, the
Border Protection, Anti-Terrorism & Illegal Immigration Control
Act of 2005, as passed by the House of Representatives on
December 16th, and S. 2611, the Comprehensive Immigration
Reform Act of 2006, as passed by the Senate on May 25th.
As the Committee is well aware, it is very difficult to
enumerate a population which is trying to avoid detection by
the government. A major issue with cost estimates in the
unauthorized population is the lack of reliable data on the
number and distribution of unauthorized aliens. As a result,
attempts to quantify the cost and benefits of unauthorized
population are hindered by the simple fact that there is not
agreement on the number of unauthorized aliens residing in the
United States. Nonetheless, there have been studies using
different methodologies which have attempted to qualify the
cost of unauthorized migration.
I would like to submit for the record a CRS memorandum
discussing the findings of several of these studies.
[The information referred to follows in the Appendix]
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
Ms. Siskin. And I would like to discuss a 2001 study by the
U.S.--United States Border Counties Coalition on the cost of
law enforcement, criminal justice and emergency medical
services provided to border communities--provided by border
communities to unauthorized aliens. The study found that in
fiscal year 1999, border communities spent approximately $108
million providing these services to unauthorized aliens.
Specifically, the study found that for law enforcement and
criminal justice costs, the border communities of Texas spent
$22 million, and of that amount 13 million was spent by the
Texas sheriffs, including 5 million spent by the El Paso
Sheriff's Department. However, the report did not address the
amount of taxes paid by unauthorized aliens which may offset
some of the reported costs.
Both H.R. 4437 and S. 2611 have provisions aimed at
addressing the cost of unauthorized aliens on State and local
law enforcement. H.R. 4437 would create a grant program for
States and their subdivisions to procure equipment, technology,
facilities and other products that facilitate or are directly
related to the investigation, apprehension, arrest, detention
and transportation of immigration law violators.
Another program created by the House bill would require the
Attorney General to reimburse or provide an advance to county
sheriffs within 25 miles of the southern border for costs
associated with the transfer of unlawfully present aliens to
Federal custody. Under the bill, aliens taken into custody by
these sheriffs would be deemed Federal prisoners in Federal
custody.
The House bill would also reimburse property owners for the
cost incurred repairing private infrastructure damaged by
aliens attempting to illegally enter the country.
S. 2611 would create a grant program to reimburse States
and local governments for costs associated with processing
illegal immigrants through the criminal justice system and
create another grant program for eligible law enforcement
agencies to address criminal activities that occurs near the
border and the impact of the lack of security along the border.
S. 2611 would also create a grant program for Indian tribes
with lands adjacent to the border who have been adversely
affected by unauthorized immigration. S. 2611 would also
reimburse the southern border States and county prosecutors for
prosecuting federally initiated and referred drug cases.
Moreover, H.R. 4437 would permanently authorize the State
Criminal Assistance Program, SCAP, but prohibit States or
political subdivisions that have in effect a statute, policy or
practice that prohibits law enforcement officers from assisting
or cooperating with Federal immigration officials in the course
of carrying out the officers' routine duties from receiving
these funds. S. 2611 would simply extend SCAP through fiscal
year 2012.
In addition to the cost of unauthorized immigration borne
by State and local governments, another issue is interaction
between the Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and
Customs Enforcement and local law enforcement and the ability
and willingness of ICE to take unauthorized or removable aliens
into custody when they are encountered by State or local law
enforcement or at the conclusion of their criminal sentences.
When local enforcement encounters an alien during their
routine duties, they can contact ICE's Law Enforcement Support
Center, LESC, to confirm whether the person is a removable or
unauthorized alien. Whether ICE will take the alien into
custody often depends on the workload of the special agents,
the distance to the jail and available detention space. Both of
those would mandate that additional information related to
certain immigration violators be included in the National Crime
Information Center system, NCIC, allowing for instant access by
law enforcement to information on the immigration status of
certain aliens. However, the bills differ in the information
that would be required to be entered.
State and local law enforcement officers also come into
contact with criminal aliens in the course of their normal
duties. Some are incarcerated in Federal, State or local
facilities, while others are in communities around the country
because they have already served their criminal sentences. The
potential pool of removable criminal aliens is in the hundreds
of thousands, but the exact amount is unknown.
In the Institutional Removal Program, which is conducted in
State and local prisons--incarcerated aliens convicted of
crimes. As a result, the aliens are taken into custody at the
end of their sentence and removed quickly. H.R. 4437 would
mandate that the IRP be extended to all States, while S. 26
[sic] Would direct DHS to continue to operate the IRP or other
similar program.
In addition, both bills would authorize State and local law
enforcement to hold an illegal alien up to 14 days after the
alien completes his State sentence to effectually transfer the
alien to Federal custody for removal and would allow the State
and local law enforcement to issue detainers that would allow
aliens who serve prison sentences to be detained until ICE can
take the aliens into custody.
Once again, thank you for your invitation to be here. I am
at your disposal for questions.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Siskin follows:]
Prepared Statement of Alison Siskin
ATTACHMENT
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Mr. Ramirez.
TESTIMONY OF ANDREW RAMIREZ, CHAIRMAN, FRIENDS OF THE BORDER
PATROL
Mr. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking
Member Jackson Lee and Members of the Committee, for inviting
me to testify.
Should Mexico hold veto power over the U.S. border security
decisions? That is one of the issues that I am prepared to
discuss today.
Other issues that I am prepared to discuss include:
Civilian border observation projects; the virtual wall,
including misinformation about boots on the ground; remote
video surveillance cameras, ground sensors, tunnel detection
and other technologies that can be used to secure our borders;
Two, the ways in which the trade corridors for NAFTA and
CAFTA have undermined border security, expanding the flow of
illegal narcotics and illegal aliens into the United States
while creating areas of lawlessness on our southern border that
provides easy access for criminal gangs, and worse, for
terrorist organizations.
In an e-mail to my vice chairman, dated August 15, 2006,
Fredo Arias-King, former advisor to Mexican President Vicente
Fox, wrote: ``One thing that is readily noticeable is that the
loudest pro-immigration advocates in Mexico were and are the
loudest anti-American voices.''
Figures in the Fox government, such as Jorge Castaneda and
Adolfo Aguilar Zinser, are seen as geopolitical geniuses by
the--and I quote him, helpless Pan party officials who suffer
from some kind of learned helplessness.
``Castaneda and Zinser,'' says Arias-King, ``long advocated
using the immigrants as objects, not subjects, to press
Washington and consulate to do certain things or simply for
revenge.''
Castaneda even wrote at one point, that the Mexican
government should repress the U.S. citizens living in Mexico
legally.
I would also like to talk about an incident that occurred
right here in El Paso. It involves the greatest miscarriage of
justice that I have ever witnessed and threatens the ability of
the Border Patrol to do its job and protect our country. The
two U.S. Border Patrol agents, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean,
were to be here today, but, due to the terms of their bond
agreement, are prevented from coming onto Federal land.
However, their wives, Monica and Claudia, as well as their
families, are with us today.
These agents stopped a drug smuggler from bringing 743
pounds of marijuana into this country. Administrative errors
made during the course of that stop should have been handled
under standard disciplinary procedures. But to quote Judge Ted
Poe and other Members of Congress, an overzealous prosecutor
highjacked those procedures.
In a case that is covered with the fingerprints of
misconduct, as stated by Members of Congress and many people
throughout America, Agents Ramos and Compean were abandoned by
the Border Patrol's own management. The result has been
devastating to the morale of rank and file agents, as it has
raised questions from local law enforcement officials about
whether the Administration really wants to secure our borders
or not. They are reiterating what Agent Ramos himself said, Do
they want us to catch them or not?
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Continue.
Mr. Ramirez. That same question is foremost in the minds of
11,000 agents of the Border Patrol, men and women who put their
lives on the line for us every day. They all remember Theodore
Newton and George Azrak, agents who were murdered by drug
smugglers and are now memorialized in the highest decoration
that an agent can receive, the Newton/Azrak medal.
In a similar way, those in the Border Patrol who believe in
the highest ideals of public service will never forget the
names of Ramos and Compean, the first agents in the history of
the Border Patrol to go to prison for simply doing their jobs.
In fact, during the trial, the smuggler violated the terms of
his immunity agreement when he should have been arrested at the
point for not telling all information as he was directed within
the agreement to do. He didn't and was spirited back to Mexico
at the conclusion of the hearing that day.
Mr. Chairman, I do have that agreement, if that could be
introduced, as well.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
Mr. Ramirez. Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this
opportunity to request a formal investigation into the Ramos/
Compean case by the Committee and a public hearing to determine
the facts. Questions about the rulings of the judge, the
conduct of the prosecutor and the jury and even the Border
Patrol itself need to be answered. Thousands of Border Patrol
are waiting for answers, not only about this case but also
about the greater issues behind it. Until these issues are
clarified, all of them risk going to prison.
By making an example of Ramos and Compean, a clear message
has been sent to the rest of the Border Patrol. It doesn't
matter what the law says, if you violate such policies as
nonpursuit, you will go to prison. Intimidation of the Border
Patrol, as signaled by the prosecution of Ramos and Compean,
coerces others in law enforcement to look the other way, and
eventually the American people will be forced to accept the
reality of a new transnational sovereignty, the North American
communities.
Indeed, Mexico has lost effective control of its northern
territories. Mexican police have been compromised by bribery,
neutralized by intimidation or eliminated by assassination.
Others have joined with criminal elements in drug smuggling and
human trafficking. The Mexican military has suffered the same
effect with active duty units, including generals, operating in
the service of the drug cartels and some here on American soil.
The Department of Homeland Security has documented at least
235 incursions into the U.S. Less known is the Military
Incursion Card, which has been given to Border Patrol agents in
the Tucson Border Patrol sector as early as 1997, and
instructing them in how to react to incursions by military
units, which I would also like to submit for the record, as
well.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
Mr. Ramirez. The key problem is revealed in the shifting of
responsibility for covering key smuggling zones along the
Mexican border, including one here in El Paso. Responsibility
has shifted from stations that have hundreds of agents to
stations with only a few. Why would the Border Patrol act so
blatantly to, if you look at it from one perspective, help the
cartels unless the corruption that has riddled Mexico for so
many years is finally working its way north.
Once again, our organization feels that the chief of the
Border Patrol needs to be questioned as to this redetailing and
deployment of zones of responsibility.
The answer to this problem goes back to the creation of the
Department of Homeland Security and the reorganization from the
Immigration and Naturalization Service, or Legacy INS as it is
referred to in the agency, to the new Customs and Border
Protection Agency at DHS. Too much power was given to the chief
of the Border Patrol with no checks and balances, with the sole
exception of Congress and the American people.
Lack of security on our border causes security problems
throughout our country. Every city in America is now a border
town because these drug smugglers, the human traffickers and
the violent gangs associated with them are not confined to the
border regions.
I'll just add this, Mr. Chairman--thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Ramirez follows:]
Prepared Statement of Andy Ramirez
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Your time is expired.
The Chair will recognize Members alternately from the
Republican and Democratic side under the 5-minute rule.
The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Hostettler.
Mr. Hostettler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I want to thank our witnesses for your contribution to
our record on this very important issue.
And, Sheriff Samaniego, I want to say hello to you and good
to see you in your home surroundings. Appreciate your
contribution to the record earlier this year as you testified
before our Subcommittee.
In that testimony, as a result of the question I asked you,
you gave a very, I think, important perspective on the issue of
one of the central elements of the Senate bill, and that is
providing legalization, some of us would go as far as saying
amnesty, for millions of illegal aliens currently in our
country. And in your testimony, you talk about the potential
results for that, if we should repeat the mistakes of 1986.
Could you elaborate on what you think will happen with
regard to the flow of illegal aliens even after an amnesty such
as suggested by the Senate bill?
Mr. Samaniego. Yes, sir.
I know it's an extremely difficult situation as to what
we're going to do with the 11, 12, 20 million that are already
here. And when you start talking about amnesty or anything that
sounds like amnesty, you fuel the hope of millions--millions of
people all over the world that they, too, can come into the
United States, and eventually we are going to do the same
thing. We are going to repeat what happened in 1986 and what is
about to happen here, from, you know, what I understand.
I think amnesty is not the answer. You only encourage more
people to come into this country, because they know that
somewhere down the line, they're--they are going to be
legalized.
And in my opinion, I think we need a worker program.
First of all, we need to control the border. Without border
control, you might as well forget about what we're going to do
with the ones that are here because the flow continues. More
and more people are coming in because they--they have heard
that the ones that are already here may get amnesty, and they
hope to come in and get the benefit of that, sir.
Mr. Hostettler. Thank you, Sheriff. And I also want to
thank you and your department and officers of your department
for their service to our Committee today and to the House of
Representatives.
Mr. Ramirez, at the outset, I want to thank you for your
testimony, especially with regard to Agents Ramos and Compean.
Their plight has reached the Eighth District of Indiana. I got
a question yesterday in Brazil, Indiana, in west-central
Indiana at a Rotary luncheon about the fate of these two agents
who have faithfully served our country and have run upon this
very discouraging and troubling situation. We will have an
investigation of their situation, and we will go as far as it
needs to go to determine what is going on there.
Let me ask you, with your relationship with the Border
Patrol, what happens of morale of Border Patrol agents after
legalizing millions of illegals, given the fact that these
individuals have, for their entire professional life, sought to
enforce our immigration laws, secure the border, and some of
them, in fact, as you and all of us know, have given the last
full measure of devotion to that calling and have perished as a
result in the line of duty? What happens to the morale of these
folks, if we decide that what they have been doing for years is
now going to be rewarded with legalization?
Mr. Ramirez. First of all, thank you for your comments that
you just made about an investigation. On behalf of the
families, I would like to thank you for that.
But with regards to the patrol, morale--and I've received a
flood of e-mails from agents from all over this nation, from as
far as Puerto Rico to San Diego, as far north as Blaine, all
the way to Maine. Agents all over this nation understand what
this case means. The morale has been shot. It is lowered ever
since the reorganization into the Department of Homeland
Security from Legacy INS.
Agents' morale, not just about this case--this case
actually is really the exposure, the--if you will, the taking
off the Band-Aid from a tourniquet wound. Agents all over the
nation report being directed to follow orders from above that
were never provided to them beyond a verbal order. To do so,
they risk all sorts of penalties, insubordination, which they
can either be suspended or terminated for.
For example, the--the pursuit policy is a fine example of
that. In a letter I saw, dated in 2003, by the current Deputy
Chief of the Border Patrol, Luis Barker, one of the things he
did was actually state to the agents why they are not allowed
to engage in that policy, and as a result of that, one of the
things that happens is they could be fired.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the Chairman very much.
I think you can see that we are strongly outnumbered here,
so our time will be so much more abbreviated.
But let me join the Chairman of the Subcommittee, as a
Ranking Member on the Immigration Committee, there is no divide
between Democrats and Republicans on the respect and admiration
we have for the Border Patrol and law enforcement, in general.
I welcome the investigation. We will do it
enthusiastically. And we say that to the families, because we
are fact finders. So we look forward to that.
Let me, first of all, thank the witnesses, as well. And
quickly pose my questions and concerns.
Let me acknowledge Congressman Reyes and his presence here
and thank him again for his outstanding leadership. We've
worked together on many legislative initiatives.
Sheriff, let me--again, it is well-noted that you have
given us testimony before, and I guess it speaks to my point,
not for your great service but that we have heard these
questions asked and answered over and over again. I think what
you are saying is, let's get to work.
We thank--Ms. Siskin, I will not ask you any questions
because you've given us a very good story of the two bills,
which is your job. As CRS, you are a researcher.
I commend you to H.R. 4044. That is my legislation that is
supported by the National Council of Border Patrol Agents that,
in fact, was the basis of the equipment portion of the 4437. I
wrote that language of giving Border Patrol agents all of the
necessary equipment that they have.
Sheriff, I want to have you reflect, if you would, on Texas
law as it relates to peace officers. You're actually forbidden
from engaging in aggressive tactics without authority dealing
with immigration issues. There's a body of law that you have to
respect. I would simply say to you that this bill would
conflict with that.
The other point that I want to make on your testimony is
that it seems that you are inclined to support 4437 for false
reasons. It has $50 million in the Senate bill, $100 million in
the House bill. That's what the conference is all about. You
have my support for $100 million. But we can't get anywhere
unless we sit down in the conference.
So I would just simply ask, would you support a conference
so that we could get the two bills together and come out with
the $100 million? Would that be helpful to you?
Mr. Samaniego. Congressman Jackson Lee----
Ms. Jackson Lee. Yes.
Mr. Samaniego.--a pleasure to have you here.
I agree with you. This is not a Democrat----
Ms. Jackson Lee. My time is short.
Mr. Samaniego.--or a Republican thing.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Right. And I agree with you on that. Let
me just go on because my time is short.
I thank you. So you agree that if we could work together.
I'm holding in my hand the status--the document--the
language of the 4437. You know, we cover over that. We're
talking about vetoes and misrepresenting the language of the
Senate bill, which really is a consultation.
My friends, legal status, the very fact that you are here
unlawfully, as Ms. Walker said, for any manner or reason, you
would be subject to being in jail for 1 year and a day. This
was added so that it could be a felon. And our own
congressional research says that this would--you would make it
a serious crime for which the accused would have the right to a
jury trial.
Ms. Walker, what would that do to the legal system? And,
Chief Wiles--because I have to go so quickly and I'm going to
have to interrupt you, just quickly give me an answer.
And Chief Wiles, what would that do to your system of
government?
And by the way, the President has zeroed out the SCAT
provisions, which reimburses you for any cost that you may have
on immigration issues.
Ms. Walker?
Ms. Walker. Very fast, it's just a dichotomy between a
civil and criminal violation with the accompanying rights to
trial, rights to jury, and of course, the time frame that one
spends in prison. In response to that, instead, right now, we
deal with it by removal.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Chief Wiles, what would that do to your
system.
And let me thank you for the statement of the Major Chiefs,
Los Angeles, Chicago, I guess, Houston--many, many cities are
opposed to provisions to force you to be engaged in immigration
work.
Mr. Wiles. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Of course, if someone has perpetrated a
crime, you arrest them.
Mr. Wiles. Yes, ma'am. Whether they're immigrants or not,
and that was approved by the entire Major City Chiefs.
But we don't have the resources to do that, and you're
exactly right.
And I'm really concerned about the State law on racial
profiling, if we have our officers attempting to stop people
that look like illegal immigrants.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me just share with you why we are
failing. The Republicans have done nothing since they were
elected to office. Under Clinton, we have done more on the
number of new Border Patrol agents. Under Bill Clinton, we've
done more in INS fines, immigration enforcement. And 78 percent
fewer completed immigration fraud cases have been--have been
done under the Bush administration. It emphasizes my point,
they have done nothing, and this is a stalling tactic.
We need to go back to Washington, have a Conference
Committee and be able to address the questions of the American
people.
I yield back.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
The Chair does not want to have to repeat the admonition that
he has given. This is the fourth time that the Chair has
reminded the audience that statements of support or opposition
and expressions thereof are in violation of the rules.
Somebody will say something on one side of the issue. The
next person will say something on the other side of the issue.
This is a hearing to receive testimony and answer questions,
not a decision on which side can make the most noise.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gohmert.
Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I appreciate the hearing, and I do appreciate each of
the witnesses here.
We notice the lights keep coming in and going out. I don't
know if that's to subliminally to tell people Congress is in
the dark or not. I was thinking it was more the Senate. But in
any event, we do appreciate your presence here.
But I need to address some things very quickly. First of
all, my colleague across the aisle had indicated--she said we
are not listening to the American people. And I don't know what
this ``we'' stuff is, but I've been coming home every weekend,
listening to people, having town halls--town hall meetings.
I've sent out a survey. I've gotten hundreds of thousands of
responses back. We're doing everything we can, including this
hearing, to listen to the American people, listen to witnesses.
And yes, we had hearings on this bill before we passed it.
But since there is a log jam, it is important to have
additional evidence come in so that we can try to break the log
jam and move this thing along.
I also would like to mention that we do need immigration.
We need immigration. We need assimilation. We need all the
attributes that assimilating immigrants bring. But we do not
need to abandon our laws.
I keep finding this incredible irony, that we don't have a
better neighbor to our south than we do. People accuse the
United States of dividing families, when the fact is, as Mr.
Ramirez has indicated, there is corruption across the border.
As the sheriff had indicated----
Sheriff, you indicated, in your written testimony, Mexico
has done nothing in order to improve their lot. You've
indicated the southern border is the weak link in our national
security. I submit to you, it's not just the southern border.
We ought to be protecting all of our avenues of entry and
making sure people are not coming in to hurt us. But we do not
need to abandon the enforcement of the laws.
I would submit to you that the reason that this country has
prospered, and now Mexico is forcing families to divide and
some to come here in order to survive, is that they have not
been a nation that enforced the laws as well across the board
as we have. We've had our problems continue, but we are the
greatest nation on earth in enforcing our laws. They have not.
Corruption abounds, as we've heard the testimony here today.
And so it's so ironic to have people come into this country
and say, ``We want you to abandon enforcement of your laws,''
which will make us like the country they had to abandon in
order to make a living. It's tragic.
But I also noted, Ms. Walker made a good point about it's
not just about border enforcement. We have a problem with our
immigration service, whether you want to call it the INS as it
was or CIS, ICE. We've got a problem. The President announced
we want a target of 6 months to respond to applications. That
was a good goal. But we've still got some areas that take two
to 3 years to respond. That's outrageous, and we need to keep
moving until we get them on track and responding appropriately.
But, Mr. Ramirez, you brought up--and thank you for
bringing up Agents Ramos and Compean. We owe our Border Patrol
better than they've gotten. We've not adequately equipped them.
We have not given them the support they need. And I'm glad to
hear both the Chairman of this Committee and the Chairman of
the Immigration Subcommittee indicating--and I urge that. We
need to have an investigation, explanation and correction to
get to the bottom of this. That is not fair to law enforcement,
and it needs to be dealt with. And as a former judge and chief
justice, that is certainly a pet peeve of mine.
But I need to ask, Mr. Ramirez, do you have any evidence
that corruption, as you say, has now made its way across the
border, or do you think this is political correctness run
amuck?
Mr. Ramirez. No. It's actually a fact. When I speak with
many Border Patrol agents and other agents from across the
various services, everybody reports the same thing, that right
now what we're finding is--as an example, the narcotics isn't
coming across the river, it's coming right here through the
city. It's coming through the city.
San Diego, we have a port director who is now in prison for
allowing narcotics to go through the port in San Diego itself.
So we have--it's basically corruption on both sides, and it's
all across.
When you look at the northern border, to elaborate on that,
you have a system called Project Athena that was never
implemented by OBP, by the Office of Border Patrol, by Chief
Aguilar or Chief Barker, and this was requested by both Chief
Spades and Moran.
Mr. Gohmert. I've just got a few seconds left.
Mr. Ramirez. Yes, sir.
Mr. Gohmert. And I appreciate that. We need to pursue that
further.
I do want to make sure everybody understands that the
Chairman of this Committee had an amendment to make the felony
reduced to a misdemeanor for illegally being in this country,
and all but eight Democrats voted against making that a
misdemeanor, and one of those people was my friend across the
aisle----
Ms. Jackson Lee. Absolutely.
Mr. Gohmert.--Ms. Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. We don't want any criminals.
Mr. Gohmert. She did not want to reduce it to a
misdemeanor.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Would the gentleman yield? Would the
gentleman yield.
Mr. Gohmert. My time has expired, actually.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Reyes.
Mr. Reyes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I apologize for being late, but I will tell you I was
late because we were doing the grand opening of the U.S.O.
Center here at Fort Bliss. We've been working very hard on
that. And I think we owe it to our military to stay true to
them. So I apologize for being late.
But having said that, welcome to El Paso, all of you.
And I know, Mr. Chairman, that you had a chance to go out
with the Border Patrol last night.
And I would hope that my colleagues make an opportunity, if
not on this trip, in the immediate future, to go out with the
great men and women of the United States Border Patrol.
Having been an agent, myself, I think that it's important
to make the point that when you put on a badge and a gun,
you're held to a higher standard in terms of the enforcement of
the law. I'm of the opinion that you can't enforce the law if
you can't respect it.
So I support, Mr. Chairman, your having hearings on the two
agents that were mentioned here, because I think that probably
will be, at this point, the only way we are going to be able to
clear the record on all sides. You know, a lot of things are
flying in the Internet. There's a lot of phone calls coming in,
a lot of misinformation out there. So I think hearings is the
way to go, and I hope you do do it. And Mr. Chairman, I hope
you will invite me to those hearings.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Consider it done.
Mr. Reyes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just wanted to make a few points, because one of the
things that gets lost here is the fact that we are working with
Mexico, and Mexico is cooperating on many different levels. I
think, Mr. Chairman, you saw some of that cooperation last
night between the agents and the Mexican police on the Mexican
side of the border.
That is--that is always a priority of any chief, to make
sure that you're able to have that kind of cooperation and at
least relationship. We cannot unilaterally do our jobs by
expecting that our men and women of the Border Patrol can do it
on their own without us seeking and requiring the cooperation
of Mexico.
Without--one of the issues that I wanted to make is that
when we--when we talk about creating this new class of
criminals, which I don't support--and I will stipulate to my
good friend from Texas, Congressman Gohmert, that I voted
against that as well, because I don't think we need to
criminalize a whole new status of people.
And the one thing that we never take into account--and I
hope you will listen to this carefully, because I have been
talking about this for the 10 years that I've been in
Congress--we can't have enforcement--we can't say we're going
to hire 2,000 Border Patrol agents this year, and then next
year 200. It's got to be a steady growth because only then can
you have the right balance and the right mix and the right
expertise of experience-to-trainee agents. That's vitally
important because these guys operate independently, on their
own, and under very dangerous conditions. So we need to take
that into account.
The other thing that we don't want to forget is the support
pipeline. When we increase the Border Patrol, we need to take
into account that we need to increase U.S. attorneys, we need
to increase U.S. marshals, we need to increase detention
officers, we need to increase detention space, all of the
things that work in unison if we're going to be successful. You
can't choke off by thinking that more--strictly more
enforcement is the--is the right answer.
I was going to make a comment to my good friend from Texas,
when he talked about the lights being dimmed. You know, after
this hearing, I hope that people don't think that we are out to
lunch either, because we are a long ways from finding a
solution to this problem.
And I will tell you this: Although I know that we are in
disagreement about these hearings, I can tell you that my sense
is that a lot is being learned by you, my colleagues in
Congress, about what the community feels about immigration
reform, about how hard the job is for our nation's Border
Patrol.
And the fact that the international border, like the
environment, corruption doesn't respect an international
border. I was making mention to a couple of my colleagues that
three of the sheriffs that I worked with when I was chief down
in McAllen succumbed to that and are doing time. Corruption
does not respect the international boundary. We need to realize
it. We need to understand that. And we certainly don't need to
blame Mexico for the corruption that exists on the U.S. side.
So with that, Mr. Chairman, thank you for giving me an
opportunity to speak.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Thank you very much.
The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Kingston.
Mr. Kingston. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I
wanted to thank the Members of the Judiciary Committee and you
for letting me tag along.
This is part of a series of hearings. I believe there are
eight different Committees that are having over 40 hearings
around the United States. So there is, in fact, a lot of
listening going on.
And I also wanted to say to my friend, Mr. Reyes, it's good
to be back in El Paso. I think that the country has a lot to
learn from El Paso and Juarez and the cooperation that you have
always had historically, in terms of economic overlap and
emotional overlap and families and friends. There is a lot of
leadership that has gone on in this border town that we can
learn from in Georgia and everywhere else.
I'm here from Georgia, because we have the seventh largest
illegal alien population in the country, and it is something
that has become a big issue no matter where you are and what
part of the country.
So, Mr. Ramirez, I had a question. And I think Ms. Walker
alluded to why--how we get illegals in the State of Georgia.
And as I understand it, from my Border Patrol tour yesterday,
that the border here does a very good job, very thorough job in
terms of the ports of entry--the port of entry. However, a lot
of people, as Ms. Walker said, come and they overstay. They may
rent a passport to get through the border. They might do
everything legally. But once they're here, they overstay.
Now, I was looking around the city, and I saw a lot of bus
stations, and a lot of places where people who are legally here
could get on a bus and go to Denver, Colorado, for example,
and, perhaps, get through the checkpoint that's farther down
the road.
I also notice lots of advertising for Liberal, Kansas and
Guymon, Oklahoma, which seemed to me very odd as opposed to,
you know, Denver, a big hub city. But why would you advertise,
not just at one bus station but at several bus stations, for
Liberal, Kansas and Guymon, Oklahoma? What goes on in those
cities?
And is it possible that these bus services could be a
conduit for people who come here illegally to get into the
interior of the United States? And is that something that
Friends of Border Patrol is looking at?
Mr. Ramirez. Yes, sir. We actually are. Because one of the
things we understand, in discussing this with many line agents,
once you get past the line--and right now, there are stations--
and I'm not going to, obviously, identify them--that you could
say are the back-duty stations. They're sending their agents up
to the line as well.
But reports have come in all over the country. Agents are
being ordered to stand down. So when you are basically telling
them, ``Go on the line but just stand there,'' as the Ramos/
Compean case further tells them, then what happens is, they've
got a free shot to the interior.
As I understand it, and a source just told me this within
the past 2 weeks, the Albuquerque station--Border Patrol
station here in this very sector is actually being shut down.
Albuquerque is a transportation hub.
Mr. Kingston. Let me interrupt you a minute.
Because I guess what I saw yesterday is a very thorough job
being done on the Rio Grande crossing in El Paso, Texas by the
Border Patrol. But then, once folks are here, through a rented
passport or whatever or, you know, because they have a visa to
come here for a short period of time, but then they get on a
bus and they go to someplace like Liberal, Kansas. Do you feel
that that is a pipeline that we are ignoring? It gets outside
the 25-mile limit of the Custom and Border Patrol here, and it
goes under the ICE people.
And are we letting our guard down there, and is that a
critical checkpoint?
Mr. Ramirez. Yes, sir, absolutely. And many chiefs and just
managers that I've spoken with around the country have reported
that ICE isn't capable of doing the job in the interior. They
call the Border Patrol for help.
Mr. Kingston. Why would so many bus stations here in El
Paso be advertising Liberal, Kansas and Guymon, Oklahoma.
Mr. Ramirez. Perhaps, for the job magnet.
Mr. Kingston. So would that mean that there, on the other
end, is an employer waiting who is somehow communicating and
saying, ``Yeah, we will take these folks''.
Mr. Ramirez. That's what we expect, yes.
Mr. Kingston. And it would be that blatant.
Mr. Ramirez. Absolutely, sir.
Mr. Kingston. Okay. Ms. Walker, do you want to comment on
that? Because you had mentioned overstays. And these would be
folks who come in legally but do overstay and then become
illegal. I just--you had mentioned that, and I just wanted to
give you an opportunity to maybe address what we should do
about overstays.
Ms. Walker. Thank you for the opportunity.
Overstay, though, when you talk about the 25-mile
perimeter, it's also a different perimeter when we're talking
about Arizona being 75 miles. What that means is still that
I've been admitted into the United States, and I'm going beyond
that perimeter. If I'm going to stay beyond 30 days, then I'm
supposed to get an I-94 document, which then indicates my
period of stay in the United States.
As far as our ability to track, though, and to know whether
or not someone overstays, that is something that U.S. VISIT
attempts to address. But let's face it, I mean, what we have in
order for people to get a laser visa, which is what Mexican
nationals have, is that they must go through--pay $100 to go
through a background check, be printed, and then they are
subject to inspection not only at time of admission, but on
every major thoroughfare out of El Paso, we have checkpoints
that are manned by the Border Patrol. So they are checking.
They check me every time I'm heading up to Ruidoso.
Mr. Kingston. But would they check each and every person on
a bus.
Ms. Walker. Yes, sir. They certainly do.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time is expired.
Mr. Kingston. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The Chair recognizes himself for 5
minutes. Sheriff Samaniego, H.R. 4437, which was my bill which
passed the House, incorporated the Culberson-Reyes language
relative to the $100 million of assistance to the sheriffs of
the 29 border counties on the southwestern border. How would
you use the money that would come under this proposal? And the
Senate's proposal is a lot different. But how would you use the
money under the House proposal.
Mr. Samaniego. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
We are already doing what we told the Congress we were
going to do, under 4437, where the Border Law Enforcement Act
that was co-sponsored by Congressman Reyes, that we would put
extra officers all along the border. It started in Texas from
El Paso to Brownsville, and then it kind of mushroomed into New
Mexico, Arizona and California, because the bill would finance
all their operations, also.
But we're doing that now, thanks to Governor Perry, who
made a statement that he could no longer wait for the Federal
Government to take care of the border. He felt a necessity for
the State of Texas to take action, and he made funding
available to the 16 sheriffs on the border for us to begin
implementing Operation Linebacker. And we have been doing that
with tremendous results.
All we do is put extra patrols along--in the vicinity of
the river. We're not on the line. We're not Border Patrolmen.
We patrol the areas in the vicinity of the river, the
neighborhoods, streets, et cetera.
The main thing that has happened, we have deterred a lot of
crime. We have made a lot of drug seizures. We have arrested a
lot of criminals. And we have come across illegal aliens.
And I understand we don't--we don't--we're not enforcing
immigration law. But in the course of our duties, if you're in
El Paso County, you're going to run into illegal immigrants.
And if we're investigating a crime and we find that some of the
individuals are here illegally, we will turn them over to
Immigration or the Border Patrol.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Thank you.
Chief Wiles, we had representatives in San Diego of law
enforcement in California, and there seems to be the impression
that the House bill mandates local law enforcement to enforce
the immigration law. That is not the case. Neither the House
bill nor the Senate bill mandate local law enforcement
enforcing the immigration law. However, the House bill does
allow local enforcement to enter into voluntary agreements with
the Federal Government to work cooperatively in dealing with
this issue.
If that part of the House bill becomes law, would the El
Paso Police Department be amenable to entering into a voluntary
agreement? And if not, why not?
Mr. Wiles. Well, the El Paso Police Department right now
works with many Federal agencies. We work with the FBI, with
DEA, the U.S. Marshal Service. We're willing to work in
partnerships with the Federal Government when it's issues of a
criminal nature.
I don't think it's appropriate or right to ask our officers
to enforce immigration law.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Well, if you have someone who is an
illegal immigrant and his illegal presence in the country is
obvious, who is suspected of committing a criminal offense
which would be a violation of State and/or Federal law,
wouldn't it be helpful for you and your officers to detain that
illegal immigrant while the investigation put together the
evidence that would necessarily seek an indictment for the
criminal charge?
Mr. Wiles. Well, don't get me wrong. Our policy now is that
if officers come into contact with an illegal immigrant through
lawful means, in other words, we stop an individual who's
suspected of criminal activity and they happen to be an illegal
immigrant, we can turn those over to the Border Patrol. It's
not that we're totally ignoring them.
My concern is that we do not want to become agents of
immigration seeking out individuals who are here illegally.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Okay. Well, that's not the issue in
the House-passed bill.
I have one quick question for Ms. Walker. You represent the
American Immigration Lawyers Association. If the legalization
or amnesty or pathway to citizenship provision in the Senate
bill becomes law, how much do you think you would charge
somebody who would apply for the benefits under that?
Ms. Walker. I have no idea, sir. I mean, right now, we're
proceeding, through the American Immigration Lawyers
Associations, to establish a pro bono network regarding those
who are not able to afford legal services.
And the goal here is that every lawyer is not seeking--is
only seeking their own beneficial gain financially, then you
negate all of my credibility and yours, as well, sir.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. I just point out that, you know, 12
million illegal immigrants, if the fee was $2,000 for that,
that is $2,400,000,000.
Ms. Walker. Why don't we talk about the smuggling trade
right now and the amount of money they're taking in for our
failure to act.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Thank you.
My time is expired. We will have a second round of
questions.
Gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Hostettler.
Mr. Hostettler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Sheriff Samaniego, in your testimony--written testimony,
you reiterate testimony that was given by a Washington-based
financial expert during a 1997 hearing on NAFTA in the Senate.
And you say, ``Mexico cut a deal with the drug cartels. In
return for depositing cartel monies in cash-strapped Mexican
banks, cartels were given free use of Mexican states along the
Mex/Texas border.''
There's been a high level of documentation of corruption
throughout Mexico's government, from the Federal level to the
local level. That being the case and given the requirement
under the Senate bill to consult with--with State, local and
Federal leaders on the Mexican side, what is your confidence in
the fact that corruption will not taint the consultation
inasmuch as there will be input from the Mexican side?
Mr. Samaniego. Well, I think I mentioned in my statement
that I consider that like a homeowner asking the burglar if he
can put bars on his home.
And, you know, we have a problem. Mexico has not respected
our border. They use it at will. And they have no respect for
our jurisdiction. And for us to have to consult with them and
ask them if it's okay to build a fence, I know what the answer
is. Right after the bill was approved, there was a lot of news
coverage, and they very strongly opposed any fence.
And as I mention also in my statement, it is not in their
benefit. It is not going to benefit Mexico if we beef up our
border. If we build fences, if we put barriers and crossing
points, it would virtually stop the flow of illegal aliens that
are coming in.
And Mexico gains a great deal with every individual that
makes it into the United States and gets a job. They're sending
back to their homes--I've heard several amounts, the most
prevailing, I guess, is $20 billion a year. You know, Mexico is
not going to get rid of that cash flow.
Also, the--this was testimony that was given before a
Senate Committee headed by Senator Joe Biden where this
individual, Jonathan [sic] Whalen, testified that in return for
putting the cartel's money in Mexican banks, they were given
freedom along the U.S./Mexico border to operate.
I've been here 50 years. I just completed 50 years in law
enforcement. I can see that. There is no control of the Mexican
government on the border. The drug cartels, the human smugglers
control the Mexican side of the border.
Mr. Hostettler. And if they control that side of the border
and possibly even the political decisions of local, State and
Federal officials along in that area, isn't it possible that
the decision, with regard to--they make in our required
consultation under the Senate bill with them, will be tainted
by the fact that not only individuals who only wish to come to
America for a better way of life but it's possible that--that
input from Mexico will be over--will be shadowed by the notion
that drug trafficking must continue into the United States as
well.
Mr. Samaniego. That is correct, sir.
And we had the ambassador to the U.S. from Mexico here. He
attended a symposium. He was interviewed by the newspaper and
made a statement, Don't look at us as a--the problem, look at
us as a source of the solution. And I keep looking and looking,
and I keep hearing, you know, that they're doing all kinds of
things. I do not see it. I'm sorry. I do not see their
cooperation.
Mr. Hostettler. Thank you.
Yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Jackson
Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to put on the record that I would hope that
our Committee would hold hearings on H.R. 4044, the Rapid
Response Border Protection Act, portions that are
jurisdictionally under this particular Committee, in the very
near future, because if this is a bipartisan effort, as has
been suggested, or that Democrats are not, if you will,
interested in comprehensive immigration reform, then I would
commend a bill that has been supported by the Border Patrol
organization to have that opportunity.
I would just put on the record that, Sheriff, the
legislation allows for a State to declare an international
emergency and 1,000 Border Patrol agents to be dispatched to
that State, in consultation with Department of Human--Homeland
Security. My good friend Congressman Reyes is on that
legislation. And do you think that would work for you?
Mr. Samaniego. I'm not aware of all the details.
Ms. Jackson Lee. But would it work if--if the State of
Texas declared an international emergency and there was
legislation that said they could dispatch 1,000 Border Patrol
agents to the State, would that help you.
Mr. Samaniego. Yes, ma'am. And let me tell you why.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Sheriff, if you would, my time is short.
Mr. Samaniego. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And I appreciate your answers. And I would
just respect you, but I want to get some other answers in.
Let me also make note that although we might appreciate
what the State is doing, $100 million from the State coffers
impacts negatively on non-performing schools in our State, lack
of children's health care in our State. And frankly, I think
it's important to note that immigration is a Federal issue. The
failure of the immigration system should be on us, and we
should be doing our work.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add, if I could, I ask unanimous
consent to put in the record a letter to the Speaker from the
MALDEF president and the National Council of La Raza.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
[The information referred to follows in the Appendix]
Ms. Jackson Lee. A memo from Luis Figeragra of the Legal
Defense Fund.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And a resolution from the mayor and
senator and a number of officials from El Paso----
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Without objection.
Ms. Jackson Lee.--that has been stated on this issue.
I want to pursue very quickly this question of what this
bill stands for. I think that we are misinterpreting our
purpose here if we are focusing on the title of this hearing
about a veto, because there is no veto. The Senate bill simply
says that you will consult.
But diplomacy is a national issue. That's up to the
president to sit down with the leadership of Mexico and address
these failures. We did it, and it was done under the Clinton
administration. We addressed these questions. That's why our
numbers are so high. We had more Border Patrol agents. We had
more fraud cases.
Let me just say, this is what is the sticking point,
Sheriff--and I want you to understand, and I hope you will be
able to answer this question, and Ms. Walker and Chief Wiles--
this bill makes a felon, gives a felony status to the local
priest, Catholic charities, to the relative that has in their
house an unstatused individual.
We've already heard this is a Federal issue, and therefore,
the Senate bill provides security at the borders; what the
Sheriff wants, a compromise will generate the relief for
sheriffs.
Which, by the way, Sheriff, you're not at the border.
Operation Linebacker is that you're internal. You're the back-
up.
Mr. Samaniego. The back-up.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And we understand that. You wouldn't be,
because it's a Federal issue to be at the borders.
And so, Ms. Walker, what is the impact----
And, Sheriff, let me just say this: Do you want to make a
local priest a felon? That's what this H.R. 4437 bill does.
They will be a felon if they are considered aiding and abetting
an unstatused individual.
Mr. Samaniego. Would you allow me to read one little
paragraph.
Ms. Jackson Lee. I would be happy to. My time is going. Is
it yes or no? Do you want to make the priest----
Mr. Samaniego. There's--it's not that simple, you know----
Ms. Jackson Lee. But do you want to make the priest----
Mr. Samaniego. There's a lot of circumstances. We--we need
to secure our border. We need to secure----
Ms. Jackson Lee. May I just have Ms. Walker----
I thank you. Maybe you'll be able to answer later.
Yes.
Ms. Walker. Very briefly, we'll have very full prisons of
attorneys and people providing assistance, including priests.
And God knows what will happen to us in heaven. I have no
idea about that.
Thank you.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me just say, I'd like to put this
statement from the Catholic Diocese in the record.
And I would simply say, Sheriff, if you want to finish
answering the question.
Mr. Samaniego. Yes, ma'am.
Let me--it's not a simple yes or no. If somebody is aiding
and abetting someone that is here illegally, we need to do
something. You know, things are out of control.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And the Senate bill does something. They
want to create a procedure for that individual. But you would
then be subjecting the priest----
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The time----
Ms. Jackson Lee.--to a criminal jury proceeding----
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The time of the gentlewoman----
Ms. Jackson Lee.--and going to jail.
Chairman Sensenbrenner.--is expired.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gohmert.
Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I understand, the current law prohibits encouraging or
inducing and also prohibits aiding and abetting. That's
generally the language we have in the State penal code here in
Texas. But 4437 adds the words ``assists and directs'' to plug
the gaps in the current law.
And I can understand persons who believe that it should not
be a crime at all. But it still kind of begs the question,
wouldn't it be better, if that is your view, to have it a
misdemeanor than a felony? So that, though, is still a little
hard to understand if that's the position.
But my good friend Mr. Reyes made the point that corruption
doesn't recognize international boundaries, and that's what
we've been hearing in the evidence here today, and that's true.
But we've heard the expression before that capital is a
coward, that money for investment will flow into areas where it
is least at risk, which is one of the reasons so much money has
come to the United States from investment and continues,
because even though there is some corruption here and we
continue to need to pursue it and never should rest, but that
it is safer here than it is in Mexico because there is more
corruption there.
So I would submit to you that corruption is a coward. And
we ought to encourage our neighbors to the south to be about
the business of enforcing the law, and that needs to become
with an--become an exclamation point.
And I could not agree more with my friend Congressman Reyes
who said we should not just hire 2,000 Border Patrol agents 1
year and 200 the next. That has got to be an ongoing continuing
battle. We appropriated, I believe, more than $275 million,
more than the Administration had asked for last year, which
shows really the heart of where we are in the House of
Representatives.
But I also think it's worth noting, when it comes to
compassion and caring, the United States has traditionally
voted for issues of compassion and human rights in the United
Nations. And I haven't seen yet the new figures for 2005, but I
saw the numbers for 2004 and was staggered to see that our
neighbor to the south votes against the United States' position
nearly three-fourths of the time. So it would be good to have a
neighbor that was more on board with us in some of these areas.
Now, we've also heard from the Chief that crime within the
city of El Paso is not a major problem, and that the--
apparently, the reports are wonderful, indicating a great job
by the local police.
But I'd like to ask you, Sheriff, what problems, if any,
are being experienced by rural land owners in the county that
may be or is resulting from illegal entry to this country and
to people's property?
Mr. Samaniego. First of all, let me clarify----
Mr. Gohmert. Could you move that mike a little closer.
Mr. Samaniego. Yes, sir.
Let me clarify the issue of whether illegal aliens are
committing crimes in El Paso County or not.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay.
Mr. Samaniego. I have the statistics here for last year. We
booked 15,733 illegal aliens into the El Paso County Jail,
charged with a State crime or a Federal crime. And, to me, that
doesn't indicate that we don't have a problem with them. We
certainly do.
Mr. Gohmert. Could I ask you, do you know what happened to
those 15,000? Were they deported, or did they actually stand
for the charge that was brought against them.
Mr. Samaniego. Yes, sir. If they were tried by municipal
court or county court or whatever, after their sentence was
served, they are turned over to immigration. They take care of
them. I don't know what happened to them, sir.
Mr. Gohmert. Well, I know, having been a judge, I had one
case where the guy had had multiple DWIs and had never been
deported. And then he finally was driving drunk and hit someone
and seriously hurt them and then came to my court as a felony.
And since--I treated him as I would anyone who had had that
many DWIs, and I sent him to prison. And then, within the year,
he was back in my court. And I said, ``How did you get here?''
And he indicated that he, as soon as he got to the prison, was
deported and naturally came right back and hit somebody else
and committed another felony.
And anyway, it is an ongoing problem. They don't just wait
until they serve the sentence. I know two cases I had where
they didn't wait.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time is expired.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Reyes.
Mr. Reyes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
To my colleague from Texas, Mr. Gohmert--or Congressman
Gohmert, when you talk about encouraging Mexico to enforce the
law, I would remind all of us that that applies for us in what
I have been saying in Congress, that we ought to be enforcing
employer sanctions, which was passed in 1986. We haven't done
that. We have not been able to get even a hearing on employer
sanctions in Congress. That--that has to be a priority.
We've had one hearing on H.R. 98, which includes the
border--the Social Security card, a fraud-proof Social Security
card and also the system----
Mr. Hostettler. Would the gentleman yield.
Mr. Reyes.--that won't----
Mr. Hostettler. If I can, as Chairman of the Immigration
and Border Security Subcommittee, we have had numerous hearings
on both employer sanctions and on the impact of illegal
immigration on employment of American citizens in our
Subcommittee.
Mr. Reyes. Okay. Reclaiming my time.
Why--why is it so hard, when the Administration is
controlled by the Republicans, the House and the Senate are
controlled by Republicans, why can't we get employer sanctions
enforcement?
I wrote a letter to Secretary Chertoff, a couple of weeks
back when he made an announcement that he was assigning 25
prosecutors to border communities to prosecute immigration
violations. I said, ``Announce that you are going to have a
thousand of your Immigration Customs Enforcement agents start
enforcing employer sanctions.'' That one announcement will
serve to put employers on notice and to have them comply with
the '86 laws, and then it will also send a message that you
don't need to--you can't even consider coming back into this
country, because you're not going to be able to get a job.
We saw that in '86. I forget which--I think my friend from
Georgia was talking about the morale in '86 about amnesty. We--
I was a chief in McAllen. The morale was fine, because in '86
we thought finally Congress has got it right. Congress is going
to help us with the pull factor by passing employer sanctions.
Well, the law passed, but no resources. No priority was ever
given that.
Today, I get people that tell me, ``Why don't you pass this
law or that law about illegal immigration?'' It doesn't do any
good to pass a law if you're not going to enforce it.
Let me just comment on local--local law enforcement
enforcing the immigration law. The immigration law is the
second most complex law in the world, next to maritime law. The
Chief and the Sheriff have to be concerned about being
personally liable for one of their officers going out and
stopping a U.S. citizen because they look Hispanic or they look
Puerto Rican or they look Haitian or something else, when in
reality they are either citizens or they're lawfully in this
country and it's a false arrest. You could get sued for that. I
would be very uncomfortable. And it would entail a tremendous
amount of training to get local and State officers to enforce
that law.
The issue of--as a Sheriff mentioned, we had both
Ambassador Garza and Ambassador De Icaza for the Border
Security Conference here a couple of days ago. They both
highlighted the fact that we are much better served by
cooperating. We are much better served by making sure that
there's a partnership on this international border.
You know, it's--it's more than a bit insulting to say, I
don't see Mexico cooperating. Mexico does not respect our
border, when just August 8th there was a Mexican official that
was killed by the drug cartels because he was replacing an
individual that hadn't done the job.
The Mexican government repeatedly suffers losses. And I'm
not talking about people moving away or people getting
replaced, I'm talking about people dying because they're trying
to help and cooperate and manage this border. We need to be
very careful how we criticize Mexico when we expect them to be
our partners.
The last thing I want to say in the 15 minutes I've got
left is that it is critical--15 seconds, I'm sorry.
It's critical--it's critical that we look at a
comprehensive reform package. You can't do employer sanctions
without a guest worker program because you place our economy in
jeopardy there.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Kingston.
Mr. Kingston. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We had talked earlier about the number of Border Patrol
that had been hired under President Bush. And I just wanted to
clarify for the record, when the President went into office,
the number of Border Patrol agents was 9,096. Today, it's
11,523. And by '08, it should be up to 18,319.
In the last several years, they've apprehended 400,000
criminals trying to get into the United States of America,
400,000 known criminals, not just persons of interest. And
that's in about 6 million people that they have apprehended.
Mr. Ramirez, do you agree that currently the Border Patrol
right now is cooperating and working somewhat with the Mexican
government on the El Paso border and probably most of the
borders?
Mr. Ramirez. Well, that's actually the problem, because in
working with the Mexican government, you are dealing with a
government that has, as I stated earlier in my testimony, a lot
of problems dealing with bribes. As has been repeatedly stated,
there are a number of agreements that have been enacted over
the past few years and signed by this Administration. But
Mexico doesn't keep their end.
Mr. Kingston. Well, the reality is, though, they are
talking back and forth to their Mexican counterparts, sometimes
with mixed results, but they are talking. Now the reason why I
say that----
Mr. Ramirez. If I can add this: In some cases, they're
overtalking, such as the Civilian Border Observations that have
taken place, where the DHS has lied to the public.
Mr. Kingston. The reason why I say that is because there is
a degree of local cooperation, and again, with mixed results.
But to mandate some bureaucracy in Washington to define what
consultation is and then get the State Department involved with
international law on whatever legal law there is, that would
certainly bog down the local Border Patrol. And therefore,
having Mexican veto power over American law as respects
modifying detention beds, modifying the fence, modifying
virtual cameras or whatever, would slow down the effort of the
Border Patrol. Is that not correct.
Mr. Ramirez. Absolutely.
Mr. Kingston. Okay. I wanted to ask another question. Ms.
Walker.
Ms. Walker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kingston. You had stated in your testimony that illegal
aliens pay $7.2 billion in Social Security. Should illegal
aliens be entitled to Social Security benefits in your opinion.
Ms. Walker. If they've worked in the United States in order
to put that money into our system, yes, they should. But--and
the ``but'' that's important there is, we need a system that
allows us to be able to fill employer needs and deal with
legalizing those individuals.
Mr. Kingston. Well, I understand that. I just wanted to
make sure, though, that your association supports illegal
aliens receiving Social Security money when they were in the
United States working illegally.
Ms. Walker. I take it you're a lawyer, as well.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Would the gentleman yield? Would the
gentleman yield.
Mr. Kingston. I'll yield when I'm through with my
questions, I'll be glad to.
And let me ask you this: Sheriff, just on--and Ms. Walker,
I really want to go down the line, so let me start with you.
You may be the slowest, in a complimentary sense.
Ms. Walker. Thank you so much.
Mr. Kingston. I know how thorough you are, the answers.
Do you support a biometric ID card, because that would
eliminate a lot of the uncertainty and protect the employee and
employer as well? Would you support a biometric ID?
Ms. Walker. Are you asking me if I support a national
identification card.
Mr. Kingston. A biometric ID card for employment--well, I
tell you what, you define what you would support. How about
that.
Ms. Walker. Well, let's talk about what we already have. I
mean----
Mr. Kingston. I tell you what, let me yield to you. Let
me--I'm going to have to reclaim my time, because this--I would
really like to go real quickly on the yay and nay and give me
about 15-second response, and so I'm going to get back to you,
Ms. Walker.
Chief, biometric ID card, yay or nay? Good idea? Bad idea
in some cases?
Mr. Wiles. I think this is out of my expertise. But I would
say, like a Social Security card, if there's some ID for
employment that you would think would be appropriate, I would
say yes.
Mr. Kingston. Well, we're just talking tamper-proof ID card
because of the trumped-up I-94s, I think is one of the big
breakdowns right now that we're having.
Mr. Wiles. Sure.
Mr. Kingston. Mr. Ramirez.
Mr. Ramirez. It has its merits, yes.
Ms. Siskin. I abstain, being from CRS.
Mr. Kingston. That's a wise decision.
Are you going to yield your time to Ms. Walker? She'll take
it.
Ms. Siskin. Go ahead.
Ms. Walker. I need a lot of time.
Mr. Kingston. Sheriff.
Mr. Samaniego. If it's for individuals that are here
legally, and I presume that would be the case, yes.
Mr. Kingston. And Ms. Walker.
Ms. Walker. All right. I'm going to try to make it short.
You said ``trumped-up I-94 card.'' To get an I-94 card, I
have to go through, before that, I have to get a passport and I
have to get a visa, if I'm a Mexican national, not a Canadian
national. To get that, I have gone through biometric U.S. VISIT
registration. I've been checked against the class database.
I've had also facial recognition done upon me, before I'm
allowed to be admitted into the United States.
So we have biometric ID concerning those who legally come
here. It's U.S. citizens who don't have it. That's the problem.
Mr. Kingston. Okay. So--but would you say that our
documentation program now is insufficient.
Ms. Walker. For foreign nationals or for U.S. citizens.
Mr. Kingston. For foreign nationals. The only reason why I
say that is because we talk about employer sanctions, which I
support.
Ms. Walker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kingston. But one way to be----
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Kingston. I would like to correspond with you later,
and I appreciate it. We'll talk.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Okay. The Chair recognizes himself
for 5 minutes to wrap up the hearing.
Thank you all for coming to this hearing. Thank all of the
witnesses for their testimony and the answers to the questions.
I think this shows how tremendously difficult dealing with
the entire issue of immigration is. I think we all agree that
the current immigration system is completely broken. We have a
net increase of about 550,000 illegal immigrants in the
country. The apprehensions by the Border Patrol and
deportations are about a million a year.
And we've also got a problem on the northern border. Next
week we're up in New Hampshire and then upstate New York. So
it's not just the southern border that is causing the problem.
It seems to me that in order to do something that works, we
have to secure the border first, and this is more important in
the post-9/11 situation than before the terrorist attacks of
September 11th. And we have to cut off the magnet of cheap jobs
through the enforcement of employer sanctions.
I was in the Congress in 1986 when the Simpson-Mazzoli bill
was passed. And for the record, I voted against it because I
thought it wouldn't work. And I'm sorry to say that I was
right. I would like to see an immigration reform bill passed
that works, because we have one opportunity now to do it and to
do it right. And if we blow this opportunity, I'm afraid that
the situation is only going to get worse. The number of illegal
immigrants will continue to flood across the border. They will
impact on our schools. They will cause a collapse of our
healthcare system, particularly in border communities, and they
will put a tremendous tax on the social services that are
provided more by private church-related organizations than by
public agencies because the '96 welfare reform bill made
illegal immigrants ineligible for most public assistance
benefits.
So the border security provisions, and that includes the
$100 million that Sheriff Samaniego has talked about, as well
as increasing the fines and employer sanctions and giving
employers a way to verify Social Security numbers so that they
can get around the fraudulent documents that are presented at
the time an application for employment is made, complete with
an I-9 form, is vitally important. Because if we don't crack
down on the bad actors that violate the law by hiring illegal
immigrants, no matter how many fences we build and how many
Border Patrol officers we have on the border, the magnet will
be there to draw people across the border.
So having a workable employer sanctions proposal is
absolutely essential, because there is no way anybody can get
around the fact that in most cases, it is cheaper to hire an
illegal immigrant than to hire either a citizen or a legal
immigrant with a green card.
Now, there have been a number of mentions made on why we
haven't gone to conference. The answer to that is simple. We
haven't gone to conference because the Senate has not sent the
House the papers to send the bill to conference. They have kept
the papers in the Senate even though they passed their bill
before Memorial Day. When we passed our bill in December, the
papers were sent over very promptly on that.
And the Senate also has a problem in their bill in that
there is $50 billion in new taxes on the American public
contained in the bill. The Constitution is quite plain that tax
legislation has to originate in the House of Representatives,
so the Senate bill is unconstitutional on its face because of
that violation of the provision of the Constitution.
Now, there have been a number of allegations that have been
made about 4437, which I think are flat-out wrong. First of
all, I favor reducing the penalty for illegal presence from a
felony to a misdemeanor. But it should be a crime, because if
you are illegally present in the United States, whether you
entered illegally or overstayed your visa following a legal
entry, you violated the law, and there ought to be some
punishment that is attached to that. And having it as a
misdemeanor would be a 6-month jail term, and I would just
compare that with the 6-year jail term for illegal presence in
Mexico that is a part of that country's law.
We've heard allegations, including those today, that the
House-passed bill would throw priests and soup kitchen
operators in jail. The 1986, in the Simpson-Mazzoli bill,
encouraging an illegal immigrant to stay in the country was
made a Federal crime, and that bill was passed with the support
of most of the religious organizations.
Our U.S. attorneys have said that the current law makes it
very hard to prosecute ``coyotes,'' the criminal alien
smugglers who make money over bringing people across the
border. But the House-passed bill was done at their suggestion
to try to get more of these people convicted. I think that's a
good goal.
And I would ask everybody who is concerned about this issue
that if you don't like the language in the House bill, for the
sake of getting at the ``coyotes,'' help draft some language
that is going to make everybody happy, because the coyotes are
bad actors and the more of those we can get out of commission
the better off we are.
So again, thank you for hearing all of these arguments.
Mr. Reyes. Mr. Chairman, I have a unanimous consent
request.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Yes.
Mr. Reyes. Could I ask that my statement be entered into
the record and also the border security by the numbers.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Without objection, so ordered.
So thank you.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And a point of inquiry, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. State your parliamentary inquiry.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chairman, would it be appropriate that
this Committee or Members here join in a signature letter to
the House leadership encouraging a conference to be had, based
upon the hearings that we've had, in order to reconcile and add
language----
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Reclaiming my time.
Without getting the bill from the Senate, we can't have a
conference.
Ms. Jackson Lee. If I could continue my inquiry.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. That's very--that's very clear
under the rules. Now----
Ms. Jackson Lee. If I could continue my inquiry.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. That was not a proper parliamentary
inquiry. But if you have a proper parliamentary inquiry, please
state it.
Ms. Jackson Lee. My inquiry is that the Senate has at least
named its conferees, the House has not. I think if you put the
pressure on, you could proceed.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Yeah. The gentlewoman is not making
a proper parliamentary inquiry.
The Senate has named no conferees. They have not requested
a conference. They have not sent the papers to the House so
that the House could request a conference.
I would suggest--I would suggest talking to the Senators on
that because the House has done everything that it can under
the rules that have been around since 1789 relative to
Conference Committees.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Then you would join me in asking for both
houses to move forward in a signed letter.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Well, I think there are ways to
move forward, and we don't have to have a press release and a
letter on that.
Since the purpose of this hearing has been concluded----
Ms. Jackson Lee. Well, I think any efforts that we could
make to encourage----
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The purpose of this hearing----
Ms. Jackson Lee. Any effort that we could work together
would be appropriate.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. The gentlewoman is not recognized.
She was--she said she had a parliamentary inquiry, and those
weren't parliamentary inquiries. Those were----
Ms. Jackson Lee. Point of information, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Well, the rules do not provide for
points of information.
Ms. Jackson Lee. I'm left hopeless.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman Sensenbrenner. Okay. Thank you again for coming.
It has been a pleasure to come to El Paso.
Let me just state for the record that lest anybody be
concerned that this Committee is only concerned about the
southern border, next weekend's hearings will be in Concord,
New Hampshire and Queen's Way, New York.
So have a good day, and please drive home safely.
And this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, the Committee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
----------
Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
Prepared Statement by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a
Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, and Member,
Committee on the Judiciary
Ordinarily, hearings are held before bills are passed, not after.
Hearings are used to gather information that is needed to draft the
bill. The House immigration reform bill, the Border and Immigration
Enforcement Act of 2005, H.R. 4437, was passed on December 16, 2005,
but the hearings were not begun until August of 2006, more than seven
months later.
The Senate immigration reform bill, the Comprehensive Immigration
Reform Act of 2006, S. 2611, was passed on May 25, 2006. Normally, when
the two houses of Congress have both passed a bill on the same subject,
the bills go to a conference at which differences are worked out.
Instead of following the normal order and moving forward to a
conference, the Republican leadership in the House has moved backwards
to the hearing stage of the legislative process. The reason is obvious.
They want to avoid a conference because immigration reform divides
their party and this is an election year.
H.R. 4437 was introduced on a Tuesday, and without a single hearing
before the full Judiciary Committee, it was marked up, moved to the
floor, and passed the following Friday. This was done without hearings
and without any input from the minority party in drafting the bill.
There was no deliberative process between the two parties despite
America's need for meaningful immigration reform.
Even though Republicans hold the White House and a majority in both
the House of Representatives and the Senate, they refuse to go to a
conference and develop a real immigration reform package that would
produce meaningful, long-term results. Instead, they are stalling. They
stalled before Congress broke for the August district work period, and
they are continuing to stall. The Republican- controlled Congress is
doing nothing.
Nothing about the 12 million people in this country using
false identifiers.
Nothing to better secure the border.
Nothing to protect the jobs of American workers by
implementing a real employer verification system.
Nothing to help our border patrol agents.
Nothing to change the fact that our immigration system is
inadequate and broken.
Nothing.
The failure to act has made our immigration problem exponentially
worse. State and local governments are being forced to assume
immigration responsibilities on account of the failure of the Federal
Government's immigration policies. In recent years, we have seen their
frustration with Congress's inaction turn to desperation as they try to
legislate federal immigration issues at the state level.
If the Federal Government is not going to act this year to change
this situation, we should at least reimburse State and local
governments for the immigration expenses they have incurred. For
instance, we should provide funding for the State Criminal Alien
Assistance Program so that California taxpayers will not have to bear
the $635 million burden of incarcerating criminal aliens. Instead, the
President zeroed out funding for this program.
Our failure to act means that employers who need low-skilled labor
can continue to exploit undocumented workers. Few if any of them offer
health insurance to these workers and the costs are passed on to state
and local governments.
The House Republicans did not hold a single hearing on H.R. 4437
before they passed it. Now, they are holding an unprecedented number of
field hearings, but the focus is on what is wrong with the Senate bill,
S. 2611. The House Republicans were not interested in hearing from the
public or experts about HR 4437 before it was passed, and they still
are not interested. If this were not the case, these hearings also
would be about whether H.R. 4437's enforcement-only approach would
work. The reality is that we need comprehensive immigration reform if
we are going to fix our broken immigration system, such as is provided
by the Senate immigration reform bill, S. 2611, not just a new
enforcement program.
__________
Letter from Texas State Senator Eliot Shapleigh
__________
Letter from Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund and the
National Council of La Raza
__________
Statement of Luis Figueroa, Legislative Staff Attorney, Mexican
American Legal Defense and Educational Fund
__________
Letter from the Committee on Migration of the U.S. Conference of
Catholic Bishops
__________
``Mayor's Congreso on Immigration Reform Resolution''