[House Hearing, 110 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] ADDITIONAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEED FOR INSURANCE REGULATORY REFORM ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CAPITAL MARKETS, INSURANCE, AND GOVERNMENT SPONSORED ENTERPRISES OF THE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ OCTOBER 30, 2007 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services Serial No. 110-77 U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 39-915 PDF WASHINGTON DC: 200? --------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866)512-1800 DC area (202)512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2250 Mail Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402-0001 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts, Chairman PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama MAXINE WATERS, California RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York DEBORAH PRYCE, Ohio LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York PETER T. KING, New York MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina EDWARD R. ROYCE, California GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma JULIA CARSON, Indiana RON PAUL, Texas BRAD SHERMAN, California STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois DENNIS MOORE, Kansas WALTER B. JONES, Jr., North MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts Carolina RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York GARY G. MILLER, California JOE BACA, California SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts Virginia BRAD MILLER, North Carolina TOM FEENEY, Florida DAVID SCOTT, Georgia JEB HENSARLING, Texas AL GREEN, Texas SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida MELISSA L. BEAN, Illinois J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin, JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania LINCOLN DAVIS, Tennessee STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire TOM PRICE, Georgia KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota GEOFF DAVIS, Kentucky RON KLEIN, Florida PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina TIM MAHONEY, Florida JOHN CAMPBELL, California CHARLES A. WILSON, Ohio ADAM PUTNAM, Florida ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado MICHELE BACHMANN, Minnesota CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut PETER J. ROSKAM, Illinois JOE DONNELLY, Indiana KENNY MARCHANT, Texas ROBERT WEXLER, Florida THADDEUS G. McCOTTER, Michigan JIM MARSHALL, Georgia KEVIN McCARTHY, California DAN BOREN, Oklahoma Jeanne M. Roslanowick, Staff Director and Chief Counsel Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance, and Government Sponsored Enterprises PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania, Chairman GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York DEBORAH PRYCE, Ohio BRAD SHERMAN, California JEB HENSARLING, Texas GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana DENNIS MOORE, Kansas CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas PETER T. KING, New York CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma JOE BACA, California DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts EDWARD R. ROYCE, California BRAD MILLER, North Carolina SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West DAVID SCOTT, Georgia Virginia NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York ADAM PUTNAM, Florida MELISSA L. BEAN, Illinois J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin, GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida LINCOLN DAVIS, Tennessee TOM FEENEY, Florida ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania RON KLEIN, Florida TOM PRICE, Georgia TIM MAHONEY, Florida GEOFF DAVIS, Kentucky ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado JOHN CAMPBELL, California CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut MICHELE BACHMANN, Minnesota JOE DONNELLY, Indiana PETER J. ROSKAM, Illinois ROBERT WEXLER, Florida KENNY MARCHANT, Texas JIM MARSHALL, Georgia THADDEUS G. McCOTTER, Michigan DAN BOREN, Oklahoma C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on: October 30, 2007............................................. 1 Appendix: October 30, 2007............................................. 43 WITNESSES Tuesday, October 30, 2007 Eiland, Hon. Craig, Texas House of Representatives, on behalf of the National Conference of Insurance Legislators............... 5 Felton, John W., President, Tennessee Brokerage Agency, on behalf of the National Association of Independent Life Brokerage Agencies....................................................... 16 Gilliam, Scott, Assistant Vice President and Government Relations Officer, The Cincinnati Insurance Companies.................... 14 Hunter, J. Robert, Director of Insurance, Consumer Federation of America........................................................ 9 Iuppa, Alessandro, Senior Vice President, Government and Industry Affairs, Zurich, on behalf of the Financial Services Roundtable 7 Nutter, Frank, President, Reinsurance Association of America..... 12 APPENDIX Prepared statements: Kanjorski, Hon. Paul E....................................... 44 Manzullo, Hon. Donald A...................................... 46 Eiland, Hon. Craig........................................... 48 Felton, John W............................................... 60 Gilliam, Scott............................................... 67 Hunter, J. Robert............................................ 78 Iuppa, Alessandro............................................ 126 Nutter, Frank................................................ 139 Additional Material Submitted for the Record Kanjorski, Hon. Paul E.: Statement of the National Association of Insurance and Financial Advisors......................................... 151 Barrett, Hon. J. Gresham: Responses to questions submitted to John W. Felton........... 172 Responses to questions submitted to Alessandro Iuppa......... 173 ADDITIONAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEED FOR INSURANCE REGULATORY REFORM ---------- Tuesday, October 30, 2007 U.S. House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance, and Government Sponsored Enterprises, Committee on Financial Services, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:17 p.m., in room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Paul E. Kanjorski [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. Members present: Representatives Kanjorski, Moore of Kansas, McCarthy, Lynch, Scott, Bean, Davis of Tennessee, Sires, Klein; Pryce, Hensarling, Baker, Shays, Royce, Barrett, Gerlach, Price, Davis of Kentucky, Bachmann, and Marchant. Chairman Kanjorski. The Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance, and Government Sponsored Enterprises will come to order. Without objection, all members' opening statements will be made a part of the record. Good afternoon. I would like to thank Ranking Member Deborah Pryce and members of the Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance and Government Sponsored Enterprises for being here for today's hearing on additional perspectives on the need for insurance regulatory reform. I would also like to thank Ms. Pryce for joining me in inviting our panel. Today's hearing is the second in a series on insurance regulatory reform. It is also the second hearing on the need to improve insurance regulation. Earlier this month we heard from key participants of the insurance industry on the need for reform. At that hearing, regulators, agents, brokers, and company representatives testified. Our first hearing reinforced my belief that Congress should take some action on insurance regulation. I expect today's witnesses to add to our knowledge base on insurance and help inform each of us on what Congress should do before we make any policy decisions in this area. The vast majority of interested parties in the debate on insurance regulatory modernization agree that the system is not perfect and needs improvement. Today we will hear from additional parties, including State legislators, consumers, and industry representatives on the need for reform in insurance regulation. These additional perspectives will add greatly to our discussion, as each will relay a unique point of view. Although regulated by the many States, Congress has the responsibility to oversee the insurance industry. The aftermath of September 11th taught us all how important insurance is to a vibrant and thriving economy. We have also heard a lot about maintaining the competitiveness of the United States capital markets, including insurance, in an increasingly global economy. The importance of insurance to consumers, both large and small businesses, and individuals in each of our districts is another area we cannot forget. It is our responsibility as lawmakers to decide the best course to take on any issue, and in my view, we should do so in a thoughtful and a deliberative manner. The current system has been in place for over a century, and any changes we proffer should consider all potentially affected constituencies. In closing, I expect today's testimony will continue to help guide us into specific areas to review. Even more so, I would like consensus and bipartisanship to dictate what areas we choose to focus on. I am optimistic that we can achieve this goal. Future hearings will explore policy options for reform. We will likely review general and broad reform ideas as well as options targeted on specific areas. Nevertheless, until we explore options, we will remain focused on why there is a need for improvement in insurance regulation. Our hearing earlier this month was a great beginning, and I look forward to another open dialogue with today's panel. I now recognize Ranking Member Pryce for 5 minutes for her opening statement. Ms. Pryce. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't use much of my time. I just want to thank you for this, the second in a series of hearings on what is a very important subject for this committee. I want to thank you also for agreeing to invite witnesses on a very bipartisan basis. I think this is reflective of a shared interest in going forward with reform, which is so very important in a thoughtful, considerate way. And I for one am very appreciative of your willingness to share this responsibility with the minority. I yield back. Chairman Kanjorski. Do we have any other members who wish to make an opening statement? The gentlelady from Illinois, for 3 minutes. Ms. Bean. Thank you, Chairman Kanjorski, and Ranking Member Pryce, for holding a second hearing on insurance regulatory reform. In addition, I would like to thank all of our witnesses for sharing their expertise with us today. In particular, I would like to welcome Mr. Alessandro Iuppa, head of government and industry affairs for general insurance for Zurich North America, which is headquartered in my district. Welcome. Most members--and we discussed this in the last hearing--on this committee do agree that America's economic preeminence in the world hinges upon the health of our capital markets and our global leadership in the financial services industry. Earlier this year, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and U.S. Senator Charles Schumer commissioned a report on what changes were needed to keep the United States competitive in the global marketplace. One of the report's top recommendations was the creation of an optional Federal charter for insurance. In July, Representative Royce and I introduced the National Insurance Act of 2007 to address issues of competitiveness and consumer choice. The bill would create an optional Federal charter for life and property casualty insurers. Designed to emulate the regulatory structure found in the dual banking system, the NIA would give insurance providers the choice of being regulated at the State level or by the new Federal regulator. The bill gives consumers what they want, choice and protection. Insurance customers will have more pricing and product options, driven by a competitive marketplace freed from State price controls and regulatory hurdles, without sacrificing consumer protections. The current State-based regulatory system has hurt the U.S. insurance industry's ability to compete globally. In 2006 alone, the U.S. insurance services trade deficit totaled $24 billion. The current system, which requires insurers to work with 51 different State regulators, is burdensome and slows the new product's time to market, sometimes by years. This discourages insurance innovation and product development. A national charter would foster greater industry innovation and competitive agility. The insurance industry has changed and evolved dramatically since 1871 when the National Association of Insurance Commissioners was established. But for 136 years, the regulatory system has not significantly changed. It is time to allow the insurance industry to move into the 21st century so that it can more effectively compete on the global stage and provide more pricing and product alternatives to our Nation's consumers. As a resident of and representative for Illinois, I have seen firsthand the benefits to consumer pricing and product options in a deregulated environment. We can extend those benefits nationally with this bill. For years, hearings have been held identifying the problems inherent in the current State-based system. Insurance reform needs to happen, and we should start now. I look forward to your testimony and recommendations for how we should proceed. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Kanjorski. I will recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Royce. Mr. Royce. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your continued leadership on this issue. This being our second hearing on the need for insurance regulatory reform in a month, I think we look forward to investigating this issue further. At the last hearing we held, we heard from the National Association of Insurance Commissioners yet again on the progress they claim to have made in streamlining regulations at the State level. However, at that time we also heard frustration expressed from other witnesses, who pointed to the structural flaws in the State- based system as the major reason why meaningful reforms continue to elude the NAIC and the insurance sector. With 50 State insurance commissioners and 99 State legislative chambers needed to agree upon regulatory models proposed by the NAIC, it is easy to see why these proposals fail to garner any type of unanimous support. And quite often it is the two or three large States with the largest insurance markets, representing the bulk of the marketplace out there, that refuse to implement changes that momentarily might be agreed upon by the other members. Unfortunately, the only substantive reforms universally adopted have come about in large part because of Federal pressure in the past. Uniform solvency standards, that is because of the Federal pressure. Reciprocal agent licensing standards, that followed the mandates and threats that came from Congress. While this back and forth between Congress and the State regulators had produced some results, it is time to pursue a different path. We have yielded to the States for 136 years. We don't have a national market here. We should. And we have yielded only to see the fundamental problems remain unaddressed. If America's stronghold as the financial capital of the world was not at risk, the urgency of this matter would not be as strong. But we are now competing in a global marketplace where capital flows to the most efficient markets in all corners of the globe, and it does it at the click of a mouse. The Bloomberg/Schumer report understood this and explained it. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce report details this problem. And I believe the Congress will come to understand that an optional Federal charter is needed if our insurance industry and our financial services sector are going to compete globally in the future. We need a world-class regulator able to properly oversee and address issues that arise in that sector. The banking and securities industries have ample representations when major policy decisions are formulated in this town. Whether in responding to a national crisis or formulating tax policy or negotiating a major trade agreement, the Fed is there. The OCC is there, the SEC. They all have a seat at the table when the policy is developed or when we are trying to get into that foreign market. I believe the time has come to give the insurance industry equal representation, able to voice concerns on behalf of the industry, and able to enact substantive regulatory reforms. At the previous hearing, the independent insurance agents highlighted their opposition to an optional Federal charter, but their support for the National Association of Registered Agents and Brokers subtitled in Federal legislation in the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which creates a clearinghouse for interstate license. However, the NARAB is intended to do for agents and brokers what an OFC would do for the entire insurance industry, streamlining regulation and allowing insurance providers to better serve their customers is the central theme of an OFC. Now that there is a virtual consensus that Congress should act, we must decide which path we should take. I believe creating an optional Federal charter is the best option. It will provide insurance consumers, producers, and sellers a viable alternative to the tangled bureaucratic web currently in place. And for this and other reasons, including the cost, I have cosponsored Representative Bean's National Insurance Act, which would create an OFC for insurance. In closing, I think it is worth noting that we have our second former president of the NAIC testifying in favor of creating an optional Federal charter. I believe serving in this capacity has given them a unique insight into the difficulties faced by the NAIC. Mr. McCartney eloquently highlighted the failures of the NAIC to successfully streamline and modernize insurance regulation at the last hearing, and I look forward to Mr. Iuppa's testimony today. Again, I would like to thank you for holding this hearing, Chairman Kanjorski, and I look forward to hearing from our distinguished panel of witnesses here. Thank you. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you, Mr. Royce. We will now move to the panel welcomed before us today. Thank you for appearing before this subcommittee. Without objection, your written statements will be made a part of the record, and you will each be recognized for a 5-minute summary of your testimony. First we have the Honorable Craig Eiland, Texas House of Representatives, testifying on behalf of the National Conference of Insurance Legislators. Representative Eiland. STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CRAIG EILAND, TEXAS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF INSURANCE LEGISLATORS Mr. Eiland. Thank you, Chairman Kanjorski, and Ranking Member Pryce. It is good to be here today. As noted, I am a State Representative from Texas, and I am here on behalf of NCOIL, a group of State legislators from approximately 35 States. Most of us are a member of an insurance committee or chairman of those committees. And we do exciting things 3 times a year, like meet for 3 days and discuss insurance and only insurance. We adopt model bills, and we debate model bills, and we take those bills back to our representative States and try to get them enacted. I usually sit where you sit, and I prefer sitting there much better than being down here. But I appreciate Congressman Marchant, my former House colleague in Texas, being here, and hope you will have some softball questions for me sooner or later. [Laughter] Mr. Eiland. With that said, I think that when you have a product that is a national product, you have much more of an argument for having some type of uniformity. We have recognized that in the States and we are moving that way specifically for life insurance, annuities, and those types of products that are the same no matter where you are. We are doing that with the compact which was discussed in the last hearing. And we are doing that with market conduct exam reform, which I will talk about in a minute. But what you will find in the difficulty is that if you have a product where if you live in Dallas, Denver, Des Moines, or Detroit, it is completely different based upon your coverage and your price. There is no uniformity there. And that is why you have difficulty in the property/casualty area trying to come up with uniform products and rates and forms. By way of contrast, with life insurance, if you live in Dallas, Detroit, or Des Moines, and you are a male, 50 years old, and a nonsmoker, with each company you are going to have basically the same price quote. And if you move to one of those other cities, it doesn't change. You still have your life insurance. You still have your annuity. Not so if you own a house. Even if you have a trailer house and you move it from Dallas to Denver, you are going to have different coverage and a different price. The same with your auto. And so there are differences that we have to recognize. I know it was brought out last time in NAIC's testimony, but it is also important to note that California is the 6th largest insurance market in the world; New York is the 7th largest, Florida is the 8th largest, and Texas is the 10th largest in the world. I don't think any of those markets are going to give up their regulatory power or authority, certainly not without a fight. And I think that what they are doing is they are doing what they think those markets need to meet local issues--the wildfires in California, storms along the Gulf Coast, and snowfall in the Northeast. Those types of things are different, and that is why the policies and the exposures are different. I would point out that what we have tried to do on the State-based regulation is when you all set the Gramm-Leach- Bliley deadlines, we met them, to institute those reforms. We have done the compact, like we discussed, for life insurance- type products. A couple of years ago we started working on market conduct exam reforms, and in Texas, I was the first one to pass that. We now have four States that have passed it. There is some concern that we are not moving fast enough. I would point out that on market conduct exam--and this is not sexy stuff. This is nuts and bolts. If you had a press release on filing a market conduct exam bill, you are in dire need of more legislation. But this is one of those nuts and bolts where we are trying to attack. The industry didn't even come together on what they felt was needed until the spring of 2005, and so far, we have four States that have instituted market conduct exam reform. And so when you look at what the States have done for trying to have some rate reforms, especially on the commercial lines, and then having some type of filing use and the States moving that direction, you will see that where possible, we are moving in the right direction with producer licensing. We are moving in the right direction with uniformity on uniform products. We are moving in the right direction on market conduct exams, trying to reduce the number of those exams. And we are moving in the right direction on rate and modernization on forms. And so we certainly stay here hoping to work with you on the reforms that you all determine are necessary so that we hope that we can support them and work to help reform this. I do note that on reinsurance issues, there does need to be a national debate on what we do with reinsurance issues. We have been discussing this along with NAIC, and there are very technical, detailed things that have to happen on a worldwide basis, not just what we do. The international accounting standards have to be aligned so that we are looking at the same issues across the pond as we are here. And so it is not always as easy as it seems. And I see my red light says stop, so I will. [The prepared statement of Mr. Eiland can be found on page 48 of the appendix.] Chairman Kanjorski. I think you are the first one who has ever responded to that red light. [Laughter] Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much, Mr. Eiland. Next we will hear from Mr. Alessandro Iuppa, senior vice president for government and industry affairs at Zurich, testifying on behalf of the Financial Services Roundtable. Mr. Iuppa? STATEMENT OF ALESSANDRO IUPPA, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, GOVERNMENT AND INDUSTRY AFFAIRS, ZURICH, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE FINANCIAL SERVICES ROUNDTABLE Mr. Iuppa. Thank you and good afternoon, Chairman Kanjorski, Ranking Member Pryce, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Alessandro Iuppa, and I am senior vice president, government and industry affairs, for Zurich North America. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with the committee on behalf of Zurich and the Financial Services Roundtable on the subject of insurance regulatory reform. I come to the issue of insurance regulatory reform with a perspective perhaps somewhat different than the other witnesses at today's hearing. Prior to joining Zurich in January, I was an active member of the regulatory community for the past 20 years, serving as deputy commissioner and commissioner for the State of Nevada, as deputy and superintendent of insurance for the State of Maine, and in the interim, providing consulting services exclusively to insurance departments seeking to rehabilitate financially troubled insurers. During my 9-plus years as Maine superintendent, I was engaged on insurance issues nationally and internationally through the National Association of Insurance Commissioners and the International Association of Insurance Supervisors. I had the honor to serve as an NAIC officer from September 2004 through 2006, when I served as president, and from 2004 through 2006, I also served as chair of the IAIS executive committee. Financial markets in general have undergone extraordinary growth and structural change in recent decades. Much of this change is due to developments such as the worldwide integration of capital markets, the revolution in information technology, as well as shifting attitudes towards competition and protection in the financial services area. Unfortunately, the current U.S. regulatory structure is not fully equipped to supervise the sophisticated marketplace of the 21st Century. The need to operate within the State patchwork of regulation in the United States hinders insurers with risk issues confronting clients who operate on national and international bases. Zurich and the Roundtable are not opposed to the regulation of insurance. If they were, I would not be here. We do, however, support prudent, strong, state-of-the-art insurance regulation that allows insurers to meet the needs of their policyholders and encourages competitive and thriving markets. Although the existing structure works for some, it impedes our ability to achieve those goals. To their credit, State insurance regulators individually and through the NAIC have attempted to institute regulatory reforms, and have made strides towards simplifying and streamlining regulatory requirements. The reality, however, is that today's marketplace demands far more dramatic action than the States alone are able to provide. Competition and efficiency in the insurance industry lag behind the other financial services sectors, due in large part to the regulatory inefficiencies and inconsistencies in the State system. Over the past several years, I have spent a great deal of time working on behalf of the U.S. regulatory community with our foreign colleagues. What I learned is that despite our best efforts, our effectiveness on the international stage was limited, not necessarily in the development of policies and ideas, but in terms of implementing those policies and ideas at home. I will give you an example. The IAIS has become the standard-setting with respect to international insurance standards. U.S. regulators have been and continue to be active participants in the development of those standards. But no matter how much agreement exists among the regulators, the U.S. representatives cannot bind the U.S. regulatory community or their States to adopt those standards. The national insurance commissioner, with the authority to negotiate and perhaps bind the Federal Government, would add immeasurably to the effectiveness of our international endeavors. Let me now mention three areas that can benefit from Federal regulation: market deficiencies; speed to market; and commercial policyholder issues. The lack of a sustainable market for terrorism coverage and coverage shortfalls in some coastal regions illustrates a deficiency in the U.S. marketplace. There are many reasons insurers do not cover terrorism or certain property risks, and we should all be clear from the beginning that even with a Federal regulator, that regulator will not solve every problem that arises in the marketplace. Regulation, however, can play an important role by helping markets operate as efficiently as possible by maintaining the proper equilibrium among suppliers and purchasers. At the other end of the spectrum, by sustaining each State as an individual market, we inhibit the ability of insurers to spread that risk and enhance capacity. The problems created by mega-catastrophes tend to be regional in nature and national in nature. A Federal regulator with the responsibility for a national market will be better able to respond to regional and national problems. A number of States still require prior approval or the filing of rates and policy forms before the products can be offered for sale. Several States have deregulated the commercial insurance marketplace for rates and forms. Others, however, continue to maintain some level of preapproval requirements. My experience as the Maine superintendent taught me that of the approximately 1,000 companies that were licensed to underwrite insurance products in Maine, few intentionally sought to introduce products that did not comply with Maine law. For those products that did require prior approval, the search for the few problems at the beginning substantially slowed the pace of product introduction. It is also important to remember that not all policyholders are individuals. Commercial entities constitute a very large segment of the insurance market, and each has specific risk management criteria. Our company, for example, works with many of the Fortune Global 100 companies. To serve those clients, we developed the Zurich multi-national insurance proposition. With it, our global customers can be confident that their out-of-territory coverage is aligned with local licensing and premium tax requirements. For our clients indemnifying risks in the United States, compliance would be much more simple if Zurich had a Federal charter. I mention this because compliance in these areas is an important policyholder protection. After 20 years as an insurance regulator, I can conclude that despite recent improvements, the States are not likely to solve the problems on their own, so I believe congressional action is necessary. For better or worse, many of the States' regulatory modernization efforts have been the result of external pressure, and there is no guarantee that the States will adopt further meaningful reforms. Building consensus among regulators is a very difficult thing to do, and at times almost impossible. An optional Federal charter would give insurers and products a choice between a Federal regulator and multiple State regulators. It will not dismantle the longstanding State insurance regulatory framework; rather, it will compliment the State system with the addition of a Federal partner. It is likely that many insurers and producers, particularly those who operate in a single State or perhaps a small number of States, would choose to remain State-licensed. Large national and international companies, on the other hand, would more likely opt for a Federal charter, thereby relieving themselves of the burden of compliance with 56 different regulatory regimes. I thank you for your time, and I look forward to your questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Iuppa can be found on page 126 of the appendix.] Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much, Mr. Iuppa. Next we will have Mr. J. Robert Hunter, director of insurance for the Consumer Federation of America. Mr. Hunter. STATEMENT OF J. ROBERT HUNTER, DIRECTOR OF INSURANCE, CONSUMER FEDERATION OF AMERICA Mr. Hunter. I even have broader experience than that. I was a Federal regulator. I ran the Federal Insurance Administration and the National Flood Insurance program, and I was an insurance commissioner and served on the executive committee of the NAIC. You asked that we focus our oral presentation on the areas of regulation that needed improvement, and I am going to do that. There are serious problems that consumers face today. Here are just a few of them. First, claims abuses: Hurricane Katrina shows the mess regulation in the States is in. People are being denied the money they are entitled from their insurers. The taxpayers are paying flood claims for wind damage that should have been paid by the insurers. Beyond Katrina, insurers are systematically cheating consumers, using computer programs like Colossus to turn their claims departments into profit centers. Most regulators have done nothing. Second, unfair prices: Here are a few examples. If your education goes up, your rate goes down. If you have a low- paying job, you will pay more. If you bought the limits of liability the State requires but didn't buy a lot more, you will pay more. If you are curious and ask about a hypothetical claim, your rate goes up even if you don't file the claim. Most regulators have done nothing. Third, excessive prices: In 2006, insurers paid out the lowest percent of their premium dollars in history, 50 cents per dollar of premium. Despite the major storms, insurance companies reaped unprecedented profits over the last 3 years, totaling $500 from every man, woman, and child in America, this at the same time they had Hurricane Katrina. This is because insurance companies are increasingly transferring risks and costs onto consumers and taxpayers. Most regulators stand by helplessly, doing nothing. Worse, insurers are exempt from State and Federal antitrust laws and are allowed to collude in setting prices and other matters that would be criminal if the played by the same rules as the other businesses in America. Fourth, even large sophisticated buyers have been cheated. Elliot Spitzer proved that with his finding of collusion, hidden kickbacks, and illegal bid rigging. Fifth, poor information. People don't know what is in their policies. There are no real plain language policies. There is no standard coverages. Sixth, new classes not related to risk are being created, such as credit scores, destroying the insurance loss prevention function by disconnecting price from risk, little control exercised by the regulators. Seventh, regulation is weak because regulators are not independent. We know about the revolving door in insurance, don't we, Al? And also, we know that part-time State legislators often work for insurance companies. Eighth, few States have told consumers their rights. Only Texas requires a bill of rights with every policy. People don't know their rights for things like cancellation restrictions and so on. Ninth, except for California, States have not controlled expenses that are built into insurer rates, expenses such as huge sums used to contribute to politicians, or to lobby Congress, or inappropriate costs like losses of lawsuits and fines and penalties. These are all passed on to consumers in almost every State. The regulators are failing. There are many other problems I could list. There are problems waiting to emerge that will be uncovered by lawsuits, not the regulators, or by the media. Consider life insurance market conduct abuses of a decade ago. The largest life insurers told people their premiums would disappear, and confused them into believing their life insurance was an investment. It took lawsuits to uncover these problems. Now, consumers don't care who regulates insurance. We really don't care if it is Federal or State. But we do care if it is any good, and it isn't good today. But consumers are also not clamoring for speed to market. The collusive and near-simultaneous introduction of the outlandish anti-concurrent causation clause into homeowners insurance policies is one example of speed to market that we don't want. It makes the policies bad. In a very short time, 46 States approved this awful provision, which has caused havoc in the wake of Hurricane Andrew. Consumers do not want uniform regulatory systems if it means gutting the few consumer protections we have to achieve it. It is hard to believe that the OFC that has been introduced would make matters worse for consumers. It is almost impossible to write a bill like that. But they did it. The insurers are very good at writing bills. Consumers do not want speed to market of junk insurance products or uniform weak regulation. We want real protection. One other myth we should puncture: Tough oversight of the insurance market is not incompatible with vigorous competition. The best State regulatory regime is California, from a consumer perspective, and it achieves both goals. Appropriate regulation enhances competition, requires insurers to compete fairly and in a manner that benefits consumers, and results in good returns for the insurance companies. Insurer-backed proposals in Congress do nothing to increase scrutiny of insurer actions that have caused severe harm to consumers. Indeed, these proposals would harm consumers. It is possible to create a regulatory system, whether it is State or federally based, that protects consumers and forces competition. We proposed a number of detailed measures in our testimony for this. Repeal of the McCarran-Ferguson Act antitrust exemption is one of them. Requiring clear disclosure of the policies is another. Simply stated, we need a strong, effective consumer protection in place in the country, not weak regulation. An OFC guarantees regulatory arbitrage. The drafters admit it. A race to the bottom. If you really want uniformity, why don't you propose a Federal bill to take over regulation, and then we can argue about the level of protections. Have the courage if you really believe in it. It is not uniform if you have two systems on top of each other. The subcommittee has a vital role to play in making sure that any Federal role increases regulatory standards so that America's consumers have adequate protections. [The prepared statement of Mr. Hunter can be found on page 78 of the appendix.] Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you, Mr. Hunter. Next we will hear from Mr. Frank Nutter, president of the Reinsurance Association of America. Mr. Nutter. STATEMENT OF FRANK NUTTER, PRESIDENT, REINSURANCE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA Mr. Nutter. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I am Frank Nutter, president of the Reinsurance Association. I would certainly like to shift gears from Mr. Hunter's presentation to focus on the role that reinsurance plays in regulation. I do want to commend Chairman Kanjorski and Ranking Member Pryce for their continued leadership in this area of insurance regulatory reform, and I welcome this opportunity to discuss why the 50-State system for regulating reinsurance in the marketplace is in need of reform, why the system does not work well for the sophisticated global marketplace like reinsurance, and explain the RAA's position in support of an optional Federal charter. Reinsurance is a global business. According to the NAIC- filed annual statements of U.S. insurance companies, in 2006 more than 2,300 foreign reinsurers assumed business from U.S. ceding companies. Although most insurers principally engaged as assuming reinsurers are located in a small number of countries, the 2,300 named reinsurers identified by U.S. ceding companies were domiciled in more than 95 foreign jurisdictions. Their share of the U.S. market underwritten directly by foreign-based reinsurers has grown steadily to 53 percent in 2006, from 38 percent in 1997. Some foreign reinsurers also establish U.S. subsidiaries. If the amount of U.S.-based ceded revenue to these foreign- controlled entities were added to the percentages I quoted above, the total non-U.S. share would be 85 percent. These percentages should not be misconstrued. Non-U.S.- based reinsurers and their U.S. subsidiaries bring much-needed capital and capacity to support the extraordinary risk exposure in the United States and to spread that risk throughout the world's capital and capacity providers. The United States employs two methods of reinsurance regulation, direct regulation of licensed U.S. reinsurers, and indirect regulation of the reinsurance transactions ceded by U.S. insurers to unauthorized reinsurers. The fundamental concept underlying the U.S. regulatory system is that a reinsurer must either be licensed in the United States and subject to the full spectrum of multi-State reinsurance solvency regulation, or if not licensed in the United States, provide collateral to ensure the payment of the reinsurer's obligation to U.S. ceding companies. Capital providers to the reinsurance market in recent years have clearly opted for the latter approach to avoid the multi- State system of licensing that exists in the United States. Following the 1992 hurricane season, eight new reinsurers were formed, reflecting $4 billion of new capital. Following the events of September 11, 2001, 12 new reinsurers with $10.6 billion in capital were formed. After Hurricane Katrina, at least 38 new reinsurance entities with $17 billion of new capital were formed. Nearly all of the new capital came from the U.S. capital markets. However, other than the U.S. subsidiaries of some of these new non-U.S. companies, no new U.S.-domiciled reinsurer has been formed since at least 1992. For these new non-U.S. startups, the ease of establishment, capital formation, and regulatory approvals in non-U.S. jurisdictions contrasted with the cumbersome and protracted nature of getting a license in multiple States. We have identified in our statement three areas of concern regarding reinsurance regulation: First, credit for reinsurance laws and regulations based on the NAIC model has been debated extensively in recent years. Some have advocated for the reduction of collateral for these reinsurers that choose not to be subject to U.S. licensing. However, U.S. primary insurers have largely opposed this effort, believing that it weakens U.S. regulation and dilutes the financial security of U.S. insurers and their policyholders. Second, collateralization is a surrogate for licensing. It eliminates a regulator's need to assess the level of regulation in the non-U.S. reinsurer's domiciliary jurisdiction, or the financial strength of it. It also reflects the challenges facing 50 State regulators with resource constraints and competing regulatory demands. Unfortunately, it seems that initiatives by some States suggest that a patchwork of State laws relating to financial security may be emerging. The RAA believes that it is essential to maintain a strong but uniform regulatory structure in the United States. In that regard, the RAA commends the sponsors of H.R. 3200 for proposing an optional Federal charter. We have also highlighted the problems associated with extra-territorial application of State laws. While the NAIC and State regulators should be applauded for seeking greater uniformity in laws, this has not prevented the States from pursing varying and sometimes inconsistent regulatory approaches. One of the best examples is the extra-territorial application of State laws, meaning that State law not only applies to insurers domiciled in that State, but to insurers domiciled in other States. We have also highlighted mutual recognition as an issue to be addressed. The United States imposes a highly structured and conservative level of regulation upon licensed reinsurers. However, it has long been recognized that the level of reinsurance regulation varies in countries throughout the world, and there are several globally recognized methods of conducting regulation. The RAA is encouraged by the inclusion in H.R. 3200 of a system of mutual recognition among the countries which would allow reinsurers to conduct business in the United States based upon their home country's jurisdiction, and allow U.S. reinsurers to do business in foreign countries based upon U.S. regulatory requirements. In conclusion, the core characteristics of an appropriate reinsurance regulatory structure are a single regulator or regulatory system for reinsurance with national regulatory oversight, and the power to prevent conflicting or inconsistent State laws and regulations in an effective and efficient manner. A single regulator's authority should provide for recognition of substantially equivalent regulatory standards and enforcement in other competent regulatory jurisdictions. The regulatory structure should support global capital and risk management, financial transparency so that the cedents can assess counter-party risk. And regulators should have access to all necessary financial information. We have identified in the statement several options that can be achieved, including the option of a Federal charter for reinsurers, which is the one that the RAA strongly supports. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and we welcome this opportunity to continue to work with the committee. [The prepared statement of Mr. Nutter can be found on page 139 of the appendix.] Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you, Mr. Nutter. Next we have Mr. Scott Gilliam, assistant vice president and government relations officer of the Cincinnati Insurance Companies. Mr. Gilliam. STATEMENT OF SCOTT GILLIAM, ASSISTANT VICE PRESIDENT AND GOVERNMENT RELATIONS OFFICER, THE CINCINNATI INSURANCE COMPANIES Mr. Gilliam. Thank you, Chairman Kanjorski, Ranking Member Pryce--a fellow Buckeye, number one right now--and members of the subcommittee. My name is Scott Gilliam. I am assistant vice president and government relations officer for the Cincinnati Insurance Companies. Our group of companies market property and casualty insurance and life insurance in 34 States through independent insurance agencies. Based on 2006 revenues of $4.5 billion, we are the 23rd largest publicly traded property and casualty insurer in the United States. I would also note that we are not a member of a national trade association, so we come here with an independent voice today. In presenting our views on insurance regulatory reform this afternoon, we have three goals: one, identify the problems we see with the current system of State regulation; two, emphasize our support for a continued system of State insurance regulation; and three, suggest that public policymakers and interested parties may need to take a fresh approach to insurance regulation reform and consider alternatives to the current proposals on the table. We come to this debate on behalf of hundreds of small and medium-sized insurers like ourselves who collectively insure millions of individuals and small businesses across this country. These insurers value their connection to their State and local governments, a connection which carries over into the business of insurance, which by its very nature is uniquely local. Consider the decision to purchase insurance, which is rooted in many local risk factors. Consider the types of occurrences for which individuals and businesses purchase insurance, all of which are uniquely local in nature. And also consider the body of State and local laws that apply when insurable events occur, including State tort law, contract law, and social policy law. It is in this context that the States have been established as the primary regulator of the business of insurance, and it is for these reasons that the States should remain the primary regulator of the business of insurance since the activities and occurrences which necessitate insurance and its regulation are not uniform from place to place or State to State. But there is great consensus that several areas of State- based insurance regulation are in need of reform. The areas which seem to attract the most complaints, and which are sometimes problematic for our company as we endeavor to market property, casualty, and life insurance products in 34 States include product regulation, rate regulation, producer licensing, company licensing, and market conduct examinations. But I cannot offer any horror stories. Rather, the company line at Cincinnati Insurance seems to be: State regulation of insurance is sometimes challenging, but we can live with it. Nor is the current system of State insurance regulation grinding our operations to a halt. But that is not to say that State regulation is without flaws. The Cincinnati Insurance Companies believe the major problem with the current system of State regulation is the needlessly repetitive nature of the system. We simply do not believe that 34 separate jurisdictions need to regulate each and every aspect of our business. In many instances, regulation by an insurer's domiciliary State would be sufficient to protect all persons or entities with an interest in an insurance transaction or the operation of an insurance company. Areas of regulation where this might work, among others, include product regulation, producer licensing, company licensing, and financial regulation. These are the areas of regulation which we view as more organizational in nature, of which there is no need for every State jurisdiction to demand its own approval. At the same time, we acknowledge that there are some aspects of the business of insurance which need to be regulated in every jurisdiction in which we conduct business. These include the areas of regulation which are more transitional or conduct-related, such as consumer protection, fraud, claims handling, and possibly market conduct. We hasten to add, however, that an important aspect of reforming State regulation is to demand more uniformity in the procedures the several States would employ to regulate in those areas of regulation, which would remain subject to multi-State regulation. And of course, the devil is identifying which aspects of the business of insurance demand multi-State jurisdiction and which would be more appropriate for exclusive regulation by a domiciliary State. But the idea here has quite a simple premise, one that is analogous to the full faith and credit of a State-issued driver's license. I am licensed to drive by the State of Ohio, but I can drive in any State with that license. But when I leave Ohio and drive to Wilkes-Barre, I am subject to the public safety laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Let's apply this analogy to insurance regulation. Why not let my company's licensure by the State of Ohio serve as a national license to conduct business of insurance in every State, while keeping my company subject to the insurance consumer protection laws in Pennsylvania and every other State. We therefore suggest that consideration be given to a modernized State system of insurance regulation that would reserve certain areas of insurance regulation to a single State regulator, most likely the insurer's domiciliary State, to the exclusion of all other States, but allow all States to regulate in those areas not reserved to a single State regulator. We realize there may be unintended consequences of an approach like this, and this may not be the right solution to what currently ails State regulation. But we feel that it is this type of outside-the-box thinking that needs to be explored before we give up on State regulation in favor of anything Federal. Let me close by suggesting that H.R. 1065, legislation passed unanimously by the House in June and pending in the Senate, might serve as a template for how a single State/ multi-State system of State regulation might be achieved. We believe that the approach embodied in H.R. 1065, targeted Federal legislation identifying specific areas of insurance regulation reserved to the regulator of an insurer's domiciliary State, is worth consideration as a means to implement the single State/multi-State proposal we have described this afternoon. That concludes my testimony. I would be happy to answer any questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Gilliam can be found on page 67 of the appendix.] Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much, Mr. Gilliam. And last, we will hear from Mr. Felton, president of the Tennessee Brokerage Agency, testifying on behalf of the National Association of Independent Life Brokerage Agencies. Mr. Felton. STATEMENT OF JOHN W. FELTON, PRESIDENT, TENNESSEE BROKERAGE AGENCY, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF INDEPENDENT LIFE BROKERAGE AGENCIES Mr. Felton. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, my name is John Felton. I would like to thank you for having me here this afternoon. I am the current chairman of the National Association of Independent Life Brokerage Agencies, or NAILBA. I am also the president of Tennessee Brokerage Agency in Knoxville, Tennessee. I am appearing today on behalf of NAILBA, the principal trade association representing wholesale life brokerage. NAILBA is a nonprofit trade association with over 350 members in the United States. We represent 100,000 producers, who deliver over $1 billion of life premium a year. A normal NAILBA member agency may employ anywhere from 10 to 30 employees, and operate in an average of 31 States. We are small businesses, but we represent the fastest growing distribution of life insurance. Currently, we produce over 60 percent of the life insurance written in the United States today, and it is projected by the year 2020, we will be writing over 80 percent. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you to discuss the critical need to streamline and modernize the insurance regulatory system in the United States. Despite the best efforts of the National Association of Insurance Commissioners via the Interstate Compact, the current State- based system does not enable insurance carriers and agents to provide new competitive products to consumers throughout the United States in a timely fashion. Additionally, the current system lacks uniform and equal opportunities to every citizen in the United States to access similar products and protections. For wholesalers that are licensed in multiple States, the inefficiencies and inconsistencies within the State system are costly and potentially harmful to consumers. I would like to take you inside a typical NAILBA agency so that you have a greater understanding of why Federal regulation of insurance would greatly increase insurance distribution productivity, increase sales, increase consumer satisfaction, lower consumer and broker confusion, and lower the potential for errors of omission and other litigation. All NAILBA member agencies have contracts on an average of 15 to 20 different life insurance carriers. The NAILBA agency is a wholesaler whose customers are insurance brokers and agents. These clients in turn market insurance products to the insurance-buying public. The insurance carrier will outsource sales, marketing, agent training, and some underwriting functions to NAILBA member agencies. By eliminating these functions, it allows a life insurance company to focus on product manufacturing and applying the savings to more competitive and consumer-friendly products. The insurance agent or broker is served by accessing product from the NAILBA member agency because the agency is independent and able to provide unbiased advice to help the broker select the best company and product to meet the needs of customers. The consumer is served by a distribution system that creates a demand for competitive products and increased efficiency these products deliver. All NAILBA member agencies have a substantial customer base of insurance brokers. They may be located in a different State, or may solicit insurance in multiple States. On average, NAILBA member agencies are licensed in 31 States and spend nearly $12,600 per year just to update the proper State regulatory forms. The multi-State nature of a NAILBA agency forces us to be keenly aware of the pitfalls of the current system. In my written testimony, I provided detailed examples of the maze that is the current State-based system. In closing, NAILBA believes an optional Federal charter approach would provide consumers with increased access to competitive and market-reflected products more quickly. The reduction of costs associated with working with 1 regulator, not 50, would be reflected in the pricing of products. This would have the effect of reducing costs to the consumer and providing consistent agency licensing standards and continuing education requirements. Centralized control of agent status through a national database would provide consumers with a higher level of confidence in those who represent the insurance industry. NAILBA certainly believes that OFC is an idea whose time has come. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Felton can be found on page 60 of the appendix.] Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much, Mr. Felton. I thank the entire panel for your testimony. It has certainly been interesting, and quite conflicting in its basic positions. I guess I would start off with one question, Mr. Eiland, just a practical question. What kind of complaints do you get as a State legislator from your constituents in Texas about insurance? And if you could tell me, what do you do about them? Mr. Eiland. Yes. The first one a lot of times is about health insurance, and most of the time we have to tell them, we can't help you because ERISA preempts it, or something like that. The second one is usually about companies pulling out of areas, companies not wanting to write products, homeowners, in certain areas. You know, most of the big--Allstate, State Farm, and Farmers, most of them over this last summer decided they weren't going to write within an arbitrary--a mile or a half- mile within a major body of water. So you have people who say, look, I have been an Allstate customer for 30 years, I have never had a claim, and now they are dropping my homeowners insurance. And we say, well, you know, we can't really do anything at that. So there are those complaints. Then there are complaints about pricing, that they are getting less and less coverage for more and more premium. And that is a big concern. Chairman Kanjorski. Well, does the regulator--do you refer that then to the Texas commissioner of insurance? Mr. Eiland. Yes. Chairman Kanjorski. And do they follow up and do they regulate on those issues? Mr. Eiland. Yes, they do. The problem is, one of the things that we have been talking about that we have been doing is getting away from such heavy regulation on rates and forms. So we give the insurance companies the ability to change their coverage and price whatever they want to as long as it is not excessive in the regulator's eyes. So even though it goes up--but that is not what the consumer sees. The consumer sees: I have the same house; I have the same company; I have no claims; and they want to raise up my prices by 20 percent. And there has been no storm. So what is the deal? Then we find out--several of the companies come in and they blame it on reinsurance. But it is their own reinsurance. They have a reinsurance subsidiary which they purchase their reinsurance through, or at least part of it. They let the reinsurer raise those prices because we don't have anything to do with their rates. And then that raises the rates for the policyholder. And we can only look at the end product, the end price, to see if it is excessive and unreasonable. And then we have to--the way our system in Texas, which we reformed about 6 years ago, the commissioner for one company recently denied a rate and said, that is excessive. They went ahead and they are allowed to charge it, and now the commissioner has to beat them in court to prove that it is excessive. And so when you hear all these people talking about how they want regulatory reform, I do believe I agree with Mr. Hunter on this. Consumers don't want less regulation. I mean, they want good quality regulation and to be able to do something about it. That is what we hear about the most. Chairman Kanjorski. Speaking of Mr. Hunter, you do not have a lot of good stuff to say about the insurance industry, Mr. Hunter. Mr. Hunter. Oh, there is a lot of good I would say if you wanted me to list some of the good things. You said, what were the problems? It is good that they are making money. I mean, I am not for them going broke or anything. I just think they are making too much. But there are a lot of good things about the insurance industry. It makes a lot of jobs in the Nation. It makes things happen. When it is working smoothly, it is great. But when it isn't, then there needs to be intervention. Chairman Kanjorski. Do you think it is not working smoothly because of avarice, or a thoughtful intent to deny paying customers, or attempting to target and only make special monies in special areas? Mr. Hunter. I think it is-- Chairman Kanjorski. From the areas that Mr. Eiland is talking about? Mr. Hunter. I think it is a fundamental change in corporate culture over decades, to the point now where, for example, McKinsey could come in to Allstate and say, we want to turn your claims operation into a profit center, and here is how you can basically cheat your customers. And Allstate didn't kick them out. When I was a young man in the insurance industry, I think we would have called the cops if somebody came in and made such a proposal, and now probably 17 of the top 20 insurers are using that methodology. Chairman Kanjorski. Mr. Gilliam, do you agree with Mr. Hunter that the standards for the insurance industry have materially changed as a result of culture? Or do you think it is getting better? Mr. Gilliam. I am not quite sure how to answer that because Mr. Hunter and I don't agree on very many things. Mr. Hunter. I didn't think you would. Mr. Gilliam. But, you know, we are a major regional insurer. We have over 4,000 employees. We sell insurance in 34 States. And we think that the current system of regulation strikes a nice balance between allowing a competitive market, letting us get our products to market, and also fair consumer regulation. I would hold the Ohio Department of Insurance out as probably one of the best examples in the country of a striking a fair balance between the consumer and the company and-- Chairman Kanjorski. But you do business in 34 States. How about some of the other States, for instance, the coastal States, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Florida? Mr. Gilliam. Do I have to respond about Florida? Chairman Kanjorski. We would sure like to know. We hear a lot about Florida these days. Mr. Gilliam. Well, you know, the areas where the risks are the greatest produce the greatest challenges for the industry. And it is tough. It is tough in the Gulf States where hurricanes arrive all the time. And this is an issue that I have been on my soapbox for 11 years in Congress, and we still believe that if you peeled back the clock 20 years and allowed risk-based rates, we wouldn't be in the problems we are in the Gulf States. There has been political suppression of rates for dozens of years, and we are paying the price today. Chairman Kanjorski. Well, wouldn't that economically discriminate against a lot of us who would like to have nice sunshine and oranges, but we just couldn't afford to live there? Mr. Gilliam. If you want the sunshine and oranges, you have to pay for it. If you want to live in Iowa, it is a different set of circumstances. But those who choose to live in the risk- prone areas-- Chairman Kanjorski. So California is going to belong to the millionaires. Is that acceptable? I don't know. Mr. Gilliam. Well, you know, there is another dynamic to this that is just starting to make itself known, and that is you can't put the cost of insurance on the backs of insurers, to some extent. There are some people who, no matter what the circumstances, low and moderate income, they can't afford a risk-based rate. An interesting study was released in the last several weeks by the RAA, and I believe the AIA, talking about the social side of the problem with catastrophe insurance. For those who can't afford it, there are thoughts of using some Federal ideas like home heating oil subsidies and telecommunications because there is a certain segment of the population who just can't afford a risk-based rate. That is a social, societal problem. Chairman Kanjorski. The formula to provide subsidies to a certain percentage of the income. Mr. Gilliam. Yes. I read the study rather quickly but that is, I think, the general idea they are throwing out there, a new idea for consideration. Chairman Kanjorski. But some of my friends--and I am not indicating they are on the right--they may call that a bit of socialism. Mr. Gilliam. Well, I am probably as conservative as it gets, and I don't want to have the Federal Government do anything. Don't quote me on that. Chairman Kanjorski. Don't worry. We don't do very much. Mr. Gilliam. There is a social aspect of this whole problem with catastrophe insurance. And I think that until we address it, it is the big elephant sitting over in the corner. Mr. Nutter. Mr. Kanjorski, can I address this comment about the socialization issue? Chairman Kanjorski. Yes, very quickly, because I am robbing my colleagues of their time. Mr. Nutter. We published a study with the American Insurance Association, co-authored by Bob Litan of the Brookings Institution, largely focused on fixed and low-income people, and recognizing that many of those people do live in catastrophe-prone areas. Because of their resource limitations, perhaps there ought to be some kind of State or Federal program that really does provide vouchers or something very targeted to help those people. That was the nature of the study. Chairman Kanjorski. Very good. Can we get a copy of that? And Mr. Gilliam, if you could give us a reference on the study that you recently went through, that would be helpful. Mr. Gilliam. Sure. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much. Ms. Pryce? Ms. Pryce. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Eiland, I was wondering, as you were talking with the chairman about companies pulling out, do you have an opinion whether optional Federal chartering would assist in that in our country? Mr. Eiland. It would have nothing to do with it. Ms. Pryce. Nothing to do with it? Mr. Eiland. No. One of the dichotomies that we have to recognize in insurance is most corporations, especially shareholder-held corporations, have a duty to try to maximize profit. An insurance company theoretically is supposed to accept risk and spread the risk. And the way that you maximize profits, one of the things that was alluded to in other testimony, is not accept the risk, they avoid the risk. That is one thing I disagree with Mr. Iuppa on, is that he mentioned that they want--with this optional Federal charter, they could spread the risk across State lines, etc. Hogwash. They want a rate down to zip code level. That is why we have credit scoring, not so they can figure out if they want to transfer risk from Texas to Maine, but so that they can avoid risk as much as possible within zip codes inside Texas or-- Ms. Pryce. Does anybody on the panel disagree with that, that Federal chartering wouldn't make any difference, that there would still be massive pullouts in high-risk areas? Mr. Hunter. Not with the drafts I have seen because they would have no authority to tell the insurance companies, you need to write everywhere as part of the deal here. If it had that authority, it could. Ms. Pryce. Mr. Iuppa? Mr. Iuppa. Yes, if I may. I mean, one of the things to keep in mind is the ability to attract new business into the country, quite frankly. Yes, we have thousands of insurance companies doing business here. But the reality is, with the existing system, it is difficult to--there is a barrier in the sense of coming into the United States because you have to be licensed State by State by State. So there is that factor there. And I think, too, with regard to specifically whether or not an OFC in and of itself would help in that regard, I think the answer is yes, that it would help to attract additional capital into the marketplace, as opposed to other jurisdictions around the world. Ms. Pryce. Okay. Let me--somebody else on that? Yes? Mr. Nutter. Ms. Pryce, the only thing I would add to that is consistent with Mr. Iuppa's point, a streamlining of the regulatory process by which companies come into the U.S. market to be licensed or do business in the U.S. market, even if they choose not to be licensed, would probably facilitate capital formation that would serve the risk in the U.S. market. That would certainly have a valuable effect going down the line to insurance companies, and presumably then to consumers. Ms. Pryce. Mr. Felton? Mr. Felton. Yes. This is--you know, a lot of this is talking about the property and casualty insurance. But the life insurance, the way it is priced, it is priced off mortality of all 50 States. So the OFC obviously would not affect the life insurance on this end because it is all priced based on the full mortality. Ms. Pryce. Well, I think we were talking about property and casualty. Mr. Felton. Right. Right. Ms. Pryce. But let me get to that then and maybe address my next question to my fellow Buckeye. Mr. Gilliam, one of the major arguments that you use, and many others, is that the insurance marketplace isn't uniform from place to place or State to State, that there are different geographical and weather influences, floods and tornadoes, whatever. And State commissioners are better suited to understand the differences in these markets. Do you think that level of uniqueness translates to all insurance products? I guess that bespeaks the testimony Mr. Felton just attempted to give. Are products that cover someone's home and their automobile really that different from one State to the next? And then, Mr. Felton, I will let you continue with your answer about life insurance. Mr. Gilliam. I would answer that the products--I acknowledge the argument of the life industry that their products are more uniform from State to State, and maybe lend themselves more to a national or Federal regulator. Let's take auto insurance, for example. State tort law is what governs auto insurance because you really don't need your auto insurance unless you have a claim, and you don't have a claim unless you have been in an auto accident. There are uniquenesses in every State on automobile laws. Sure, in general they are the same, just like the speed limits are generally the same. But when you are talking about how do you resolve a claim in Pennsylvania versus New Jersey versus California, there are tremendous uniquenesses that need to be taken into account. And maybe an analogy is, I hear over and over, insurance is like banking, so why not the optional Federal charter? Well, a key distinguishing factor is this claims process. You don't have to go through a claims process to withdraw money from an ATM. But if you have an auto accident, you can't get your claim resolved by going to an ATM. You have to talk to a claims adjuster, who has to look at the laws of that State. There are just so many things that distinguish especially property/ casualty. Ms. Pryce. Well, thank you. And Mr. Felton, very briefly, do you want to continue making your point on life insurance? Mr. Felton. Yes. The point was that the way the life insurance companies in the United States price their products, it is priced off the mortality of the total population. However, people in certain States--I will give you an example. In Tennessee, we can buy a guaranteed issue life insurance product. If we can't get anything else, we can buy that product in the State of Tennessee. If we lived in North Carolina, we could not buy that product because it is not approved in North Carolina. That is where some of the shortcomings of the NAIC--I think they are doing a great job with the compact. But unfortunately, it is not doing enough. Ms. Pryce. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Kanjorski. Mr. Scott? Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me ask you, if each of you would care to comment very briefly on this issue of some disparity between the competing products, similar products, between banks and life insurers. For example, competing with similar bank products, life insurers have claimed to us that they are at a disadvantage with their retirement and asset accumulation products. It is true that banks can introduce new products in a relatively short period of time, say, a couple of weeks, whereas the insurers can sometimes take up to 2 years to obtain all of the necessary approvals for similar products. And that is a true fact. What are your thoughts on this and your opinions on ways that we can improve on this disparity to try to bring some equalization here and some relief, again making progress on this in a fair and competitive way without a complete overhaul? Mr. Felton. I will be glad to take a shot at it. A lot of the products--I assume the products you are talking about with banks, you are talking about CDs and IRAs and money market ACSC's? Mr. Scott. Yes. Retirement asset accumulation. Mr. Felton. Because banks do sell a lot of life insurance these days. And they are selling products that any agent in the United States can sell as well. Now, when it comes to CDs, they are able to bring that to market quicker because they are determining those rates themselves. If a life insurance company were to try to bring an annuity product out that would compete with this CD or money market or whatever it was, it would be a long process to get it approved in all 50 States, if you could even do that. Right now it may be approved in one State and not approved in the other. So there is a little bit of disparity there. And as far as competitiveness, they are to give products--or put products on the market that the life insurers can't compete with in a timely manner. Is that kind of-- Mr. Scott. Yes. Is there anything we can do about that disparity? Mr. Felton. Well, it would be nice if we had a little more speed to market with the products for the life insurance carriers, and that is kind of what we are pushing for on the life side. We need to be able to bring a product out, and rather than just have it approved in 32 States, have it approved in all 50 States so we can take it to the consumers and they can take advantage of the better pricing. Mr. Gilliam. Could I jump in there? Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. Mr. Gilliam. One of the things I spoke of is this problem of 34 jurisdictions demanding approval of the same thing. Now, there might be, you know, quite a bit of debate on this, and it might strike fear in the hearts of State insurance commissioners everywhere. But I think what needs to be looked at is why couldn't that product be approved in that insurer's home State and be allowed to be used nationwide the next day? I think that is what we really have to look at here. That is the whole linchpin of this debate. It is about getting your product to market. We wouldn't be here today if there were delays in getting products to market. That is what is driving this entire debate. And until we really get our arms around that, we are going to be foundering. Mr. Scott. Do we have any way of--and I will get to you in a minute--but do we have any way of measuring the impact of loss to the insurers by not having this disparity addressed? [No response] Mr. Gilliam. Sounds like we don't. Mr. Scott. Would you say it is a significant loss? Is it a big enough issue for us to wade in on, or is it something that we just let the market take care of itself, do nothing about? Mr. Felton. I would venture to say it is a growing loss. As the banks become more--invest in the selling of financial products, I think it grows every year. But what that number is-- Mr. Scott. All right. We have no quantity? Mr. Felton. Not to my knowledge. There might be. I don't know it. Mr. Scott. Yes, sir? Mr. Eiland. I think one of the things--the question is what can you all do. One of the things that I think members of this committee and the subcommittee and the full committee can do is for those 20-odd States that have not joined the compact, you can go back to those States and, number one, ask why that legislature has not joined the compact by passing the bill and/ or the commissioner and/or the governor and encourage them to do so because then you could accomplish a filing at one single point for life insurance, annuities, long-term care, and disability insurance in all 50 States instead of just the 30- some-odd that you can get done now, once that gets fully implemented and operational. Mr. Hunter. I agree with that, that the charter--the NAIC is recognizing the difference between life and property/ casualty with its compact. And I think that is the short-term solution to the life insurance kind of thing. Certainly it is not the State of domicile. I was a Texas insurance commissioner and I couldn't get a certain State to take an insurance company down that was clearly broke because the ex-governor served on the board of directors and they were afraid. So I had to go into their State courts and take down the company. So I think the State of domicile has some political pressure problems. But the NAIC charter with a multi-State--if the States would give their good actuaries and good reviewers of policies to that charter, it can actually quickly do a good review that would even satisfy consumers. Mr. Scott. Yes, sir? Mr. Iuppa. Just a quick point on the quantification. I think you phrased the question in terms of cost to the insurers. I think we are losing focus here. It is a loss to consumers, not the insurers. I mean, they are losing opportunity cost because products can't get into the marketplace. Mr. Scott. Okay. Fine. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much, Mr. Scott. Mr. Royce? Mr. Royce. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to go to Mr. Iuppa. Mr. Iuppa, you were a former president of the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. And I was going to ask you, do you believe it is necessary that all lines of insurance, including life insurance, property/casualty, commercial, personal lines, should they all be included in an optional Federal charter? Should Congress go down that path? Should we attempt to create one national market for insurance in that way? Mr. Iuppa. Yes. The short answer is yes. I think the important thing to keep in mind, what we are talking about under the bill that you and Representative Bean have proposed, is an optional Federal charter. I think that all the companies who do business in the United States, regardless of line, ought to have the opportunity to make that decision, to make that choice. So the short answer is yes. Mr. Royce. We face a $24 billion deficit in insurance services nationwide. We hear that a lot of it has to do with the Balkanization of the market here. We know that in Europe, they now have a market. On the other hand, we look at banks and other financial services. There they have a $28 billion surplus in terms of our trade overseas. Do you think that this has an impact, this nature of the market here in the United States today under this structure? Mr. Iuppa. Yes. I think it does. I think the thing to keep in mind is that the United States probably represents the largest market, certainly, in the world with regard to insured purchases, whether you are talking about property, life, all kinds. Again, the inability to come in through a single point is a deterrent with regard to capital moving into this country to create new insurance companies, whether it is at the reinsurance level, whether it is at the primary carrier. So I think there is clearly a barrier there, and I can say with certainty that in my dealings with even my former colleagues at the E.U., that that was probably one of the most significant complaints that they would raise, both from the industry side as well as the regulatory side. Mr. Royce. Who from the United States currently represents the collective interests of the sector of insurance at international conferences, at meetings, at summits, when regulatory matters are discussed, when it comes to economic advocacy purposes, when it comes to trying to get into markets where we are locked out? Mr. Iuppa. Well, I think it is a multi-faceted approach. And, I mean, the fact that you don't have a Federal regulator for, for instance, USTR to go to directly or Commerce directly to go to--they do go to the States and the NAIC, who represent the regulatory community. Mr. Royce. And apparently that hasn't been very effective. I wanted to go to Mr. Felton with a question because he is a representative of one of several agent groups--we have agents for change--that came out in support of the concept of an optional Federal charter as well. Now, for the NAILBA, you say the average member does business in a number of States, probably 31 States, on average. You said in your testimony, if I got this right, that it costs each of them about $12,000 to keep up with the separate States in terms of the redundancy, the bureaucracy. I think one of the business schools did a study and said these costs for the consumers translate to $5.7 billion, if you believe that when you have competition and so forth, that consumers ultimately pay a price for the regulatory burden imposed and the costs imposed. I was going to ask you, how could an optional Federal charter approach benefit agents, but also benefit producers and consumers in your mind. And maybe you could provide a specific example where consumers are adversely impacted by the current system. Mr. Felton. Sure. The way it works now is--and the numbers we gave you were averages. I personally am licensed in 49 States, so I have a person on my staff who is in charge of keeping up my license in each one of these States. There is a fee for each State, and those fees are not the same. Some States are much more expensive than others. If I do that, an agent has--if he is going to sell in a different State, he has to have a license in that State as well. So he has to fill out the paperwork and pay the fees. It goes all the way up to the insurance companies. If they are going to sell in a State, they have to pay the licenses in each State they are in. Those are costs that the insurance company pays. That will come out in the pricing because whatever it costs them to produce a product, and life insurance is a product, it is going to be borne by the consumer because they are going to have to pay a price and the insurance company is going to price that product to where they can make money on it. So it kind of runs downhill. If they are paying more to be in all 50 States than they would to have one national license, that cost will be borne by the consumers. And if nothing else, in money and man-hours, it is a real hassle. Mr. Royce. Thank you, Mr. Felton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Kanjorski. Ms. Bean? Ms. Bean. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also have a question for Mr. Iuppa. There is ample evidence to suggest that States that have imposed price controls in the interest of consumers have often gotten results that don't benefit those consumers, and that in other States, like mine in Illinois, or States like New Jersey who have had a market-based approach, there have been benefits in terms of price and product options to consumers. Do you have any examples of either the positive or the negative effects based on a regulated or deregulated environment? Mr. Iuppa. Yes. And for that, to respond to that, I will go back to my tenure as a superintendent in Maine. The health insurance market in Maine, like most States, is divided into three markets, the individual, the small group, and the large group. And in the State of Maine, the most heavily regulated is the individual market, then followed by the small group, and then the large group, which is basically experience rated. But what has effectively happened in the Maine marketplace is that the market in the most turmoil is the individual market. The effect of the oversight that has been put in place there has effectively killed the market. There are maybe four carriers left who will write business in Maine when it comes to health insurance. So I think that is an example of where good balance and equilibrium hasn't necessarily worked well. Ms. Bean. Do you have any converse, the other side, by chance? Mr. Iuppa. Well, certainly Illinois is an area that, with its market-based approach, has been rather positive. Certainly, again drawing on my experience previously, looking at things like auto insurance rates, Illinois was always favorable compared to some of the other States. I do know in New Jersey, where they effectively had no market for auto insurance just a few short years ago, with the changes they have made there companies have now come back into the market. So I think there are some positive examples, too. Ms. Bean. Some more consumer options. Thank you. I have a little more time. so I would like to ask you one other question, based on your experience as a regulator. Most of us on this committee would agree that it would be a desirable objective to increase capital flows into the United States and minimize capital from flowing offshore, particularly if it is in reaction to a regulatory environment. Do you have any comments on the impact our current regulatory system has towards that objective? Mr. Iuppa. Sure. The first thing I want to do is point out that with regard to capital inflows, that Zurich started capital inflows into the United States back in 1912. We were the first foreign insurance company to become active here in this market. But I think that again, we have to look at this in the context of that this is very much a global marketplace that we are operating in now. Yes, risks can be local. But for a carrier like Zurich, where we do business in 170 different countries, we have the ability to spread that risk around. And capital is the essence of an insurance company's ability to write business. Absent capital coming in, creating the surplus within the companies to write business, it is just not going to happen. We certainly saw--after September 11th is a good example. There was a tremendous amount of capital that actually came into the insurance marketplace, something like $18 or $20 billion. Most of that went to companies being formed in Bermuda. And the primary reason that I was hearing at the time, and being told when I was asking about it, was because we just do not want to have to put up with the hassle of becoming licensed in all the States. It is too time-consuming. It can take us a year or 2 years to get through the entire process. Whereas other jurisdictions, they were able to bring that capital in and they were able to form the companies, and they have been underwriting risk here in the United States ever since. Ms. Bean. Thank you, and I yield back. Chairman Kanjorski. The gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis of Kentucky. Thank you, Chairman Kanjorski. I apologize to the witnesses for missing some of the earlier testimony. I was finishing some meetings back at the office. But this is the second hearing that we have had on insurance regulatory reform in Congress. It is evident from the panel today that there is, to put it mildly, a diversity of opinion on how we need to tackle this. I don't see why we can't move forward in absence of agreement with perhaps a focused, targeted modernization, with measures that are going to directly benefit consumers. My question at this point in the committee's discussion of the issue is for any of the witnesses who support a Federal regulator. And I would like to frame it like this: Have you fundamentally decided your organization can't work with those in the industry who oppose a Federal regulator as a means to find common ground or to build consensus on key parts of the overall debate of regulatory modernization? Mr. Felton. I think on behalf of NAILBA, we are willing to work with anyone that is going to improve the life insurance arena for the consumer. That is--you know, we are willing to move it forward. We want to be able to speed the product, improve the way we license our agencies, and just make it easier to do business. So that is kind of where we stand. Mr. Davis of Kentucky. Anybody else? Mr. Nutter? Mr. Nutter. If I might comment. I represent the reinsurance market. It is probably the one area where there is increasing support around the idea of streamlining the current system. Even the NAIC has a proposal before it that would facilitate a single State as a port of entry for reinsurers being licensed in the United States, and a system of mutual recognition for reinsurers doing business from outside the United States into the United States. So even the State regulators recognize that the global nature of the reinsurance market lends itself most readily to a single regulator, national or Federal. Mr. Davis of Kentucky. Anybody else? Mr. Iuppa. Yes. You know, like the prior two speakers, I mean, we are certainly interested in moving the agenda of an OFC forward. And I think--again I go back to a comment I think I may have made while you were not with us, Representative. But it is an optional, what we are talking about. We are not talking about scrapping the State system. We are not talking about making an either/or in terms of the proposal that is out there at this point. So I think that at the end of the day there are certain things, certain structures that come into play depending on a company's business model. For a company that does business in only one or two States, they may not be interested at all in an optional Federal charter, whereas a company that I work for, that does business in 170 different countries, all the States and territories, there is a much greater likelihood that we would be interested in that and are interested in that. And one of the driving factors is that many of our customers do business on a national and international basis. We are basically a commercial writer, so we have a different clientele, if you will, within the company. So there are different needs, I think, that are out there. And I think what we are all looking for is to try and strike the right balance and have good legislation come forward. Mr. Davis of Kentucky. Go ahead. Mr. Hunter. In support--I am representing consumers, mostly individual type consumers. And I believe, and you weren't here, we are agnostic about whether it is federally or State-based. If it is excellent, we will be for it, whatever is the best. So if we had a very strong Federal system, we could be for that. We don't like optional. We don't like choice going back and forth for the insurers. We think that sets up a regulatory arbitrage. Mr. Gilliam. A brief comment on that? Even though I am not a supporter of the OFC, the point I want to make bears on this tremendously. Here is our biggest concern: The word ``optional'' is a red herring because if Congress decides to go with an optional Federal charter and they close the books on insurance regulation, you are done. You are not going to do anything to try and help reform the State system. Then we are going to have two unlevel systems. And those who use the simple Federal system are going to have a tremendous competitive advantage over the rest of us who still have the State system that, while good in its basis, needs modernization. Mr. Davis of Kentucky. Yes. I would suggest just one thing. In retrospect and perspectives, I have never seen anything the Federal Government has done that seemed helpful other than-- taking the analogy, it is like swallowing a polar bear trap. It may seem good going down, but when it springs on you, you suddenly find out it is holding onto you from the inside. And I suppose the question having come out of a professional background dealing with systems integration, you know, in the high tech world, much of the problem--the legislative challenges that we face, depending on how it is done, could create a vast market advantage for one side or the other, depending on how you do this. But when I get below the symptom level and I begin looking at root causes, the root causes are very common. There is a lack of information standardization, lack of best practices among the States, and from the standpoint of creating common standards for interchange between the States would seem like a way to begin this process, to establish this common ground on what those critical data entry points are before creating a new Federal bureaucracy that isn't necessarily going to have the interests of the States in mind. And particularly for the small insurance brokers and small companies, this could create some challenge in multi-State. You know, on the flip side, I understand as a business owner the challenges of trying to write insurance when you have to deal with someone licensed in seven different States to try to get the same health insurance policy done. It is a nightmare for the insurer, for the person out at the tip of the spear, but also for the small business owner as well. And I think having seen this as a consumer and as an integrator, one of the places to start is with this common ground rather than create something and then find a way to fit the States or the Federal Government into it. And with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Kanjorski. The gentleman from Berks County, Pennsylvania, Mr. Gerlach. Mr. Gerlach. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Really following up on Representative Davis's comment there, and some of your comments and prior conversations on this whole issue of an optional Federal charter, I wonder, with the existence of this compact--and I am not even sure how many States have formally entered into this compact--I wonder, when you look at the issue of Federal charter and you look at the benefits that it proposes, as well as the concern on the other side that you are creating a new Federal bureaucracy, and what it looks like in year one may be totally different from what it looks like in year ten and beyond, has there been an effort within the industry overall, and perhaps Congress can be part of the effort, to first see if there can be established a uniform insurance code that would be accepted by States? Perhaps, you said, a minimum number of States, that if accepted then creates a nationwide system where you have uniform definitions. You have uniform product issues defined. You have a process for approval that is standard. You have a standard licensing and review process. So that on the one hand, you have created that uniformity that many seek, and on the other hand, you still retain the ability of States to regulate that uniform code without having to create a new Federal bureaucracy to do that. If for some reason a minimum number of States do not adopt a uniform insurance code by a certain date, then you certainly have perhaps Congress giving the ability to then move into an optional Federal charter because you have given the States the ability to adopt that and they have failed to do so and correct the problems that you describe. So is there any thought on taking an interim step before you move to an optional Federal charter, at least for some lines of insurance like life or property, where you establish a model uniform insurance code and then you set the process to move forward from there, and if 80 percent of the States adopt it within a certain period of time, all 50 States then must comply, and if there is not an ability to get 80 percent within a certain time period, you move to an optional Federal charter type program. Any thought given to that, or what is your comment on something like that? Mr. Hunter. We have had that. I see Mr. Baker here. He introduced that, basically, in the SMART Act, which we happened to oppose and other people supported. So I think we have had that debate, and it obviously can always be reintroduced. It is not a new idea. Mr. Iuppa. I guess, if I can, just a couple quick comments on that. One is going back to Gramm-Leach-Bliley and the NARAP proposal or provisions in that law which effectively looked to put together or require a uniform producer licensing code or law. And it had to have a certain number of States, 27, I think it was, or maybe 26, which would trigger it. The reality is, and I think we would hear from Mr. Felton, that we don't have a uniform licensing system in the United States even with that provision in the law. The other thing I just would mention is that--well, the other thing to keep in mind is that since--and I had the opportunity to look back at some of the early minutes of the NAIC just in the last couple of years. And really, what you have just articulated is one of the goals of the NAIC. There is some debate as to which commissioner it was who actually came forward first, but New York generally gets credit, to try and bring the commissioners together back in the 1870's and come up with uniform financial reporting in particular at that point in time, but also more uniformity amongst the different aspects of the oversight. I think the reality is what you have is the same kind of-- you know, one of the strengths of our country is the State system in the sense that we have it as a means of using it for experimentation. It is one of the strengths that we have, I think, as a country. But that also brings into it an awful lot of opportunity for creating diversity, even when uniformity would be better off than diversity. And certainly in some areas relative to insurance regulation, we would be better off with uniformity. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I think that the optional Federal charter would provide that for those companies that are looking for a uniform policy of regulation and supervision. And then you would also have the ability for companies like Mr. Gilliam's to be able to continue to be supervised at the State level. Mr. Eiland. I think you have the tools out there right now. What we need to do is make sure they work better. With the compact in place, up and running at least for 30-some-odd States, you have the framework to work from there for the most logical lines. I don't know if you were here, but my comment earlier was that until you have a product that is the same price and form in Dallas, Denver, Des Moines, and Detroit, if it is different in each of those places, you are going to have a tremendous problem trying to get uniformity because it is not uniform by its very nature. The four products that we have in the interstate compact commission--life, disability, long-term care, and annuities--it doesn't matter if you live in Dallas, Denver, or Detroit. And if you move, it goes with you, and the premium doesn't change. And so that makes sense. Let's work on that first. We have that framework. If there is licensing and producer licensing tweaks and reform that needs to be done, we have the basis there. We have done it before on Gramm-Leach-Bliley. If we need to enhance that, make it better, we can do that, and we can do that on the State level. And so those two are there for those products. And those are the most logical ones at least to start with. If you try to do a nationwide insurance code, we will all be gone, I think, by the time that gets done. Mr. Felton. Yes. I think in my opening comments I stated that, you know, NAILBA says that the NAIC's compact was a good idea. At this point, I think, as has been said, we have 30- some-odd States involved. Unfortunately, there is no enforcement. If a State chooses not to take part in that compact, I don't know who--what is the downfall for them? I don't think there is any. Mr. Gerlach. Please. Mr. Gilliam. Be careful what you ask for when you ask for a Federal insurance code. But I will say that the idea is somewhat intriguing since it would reserve the ultimate regulatory authority to the States for this reason. As Mr. Iuppa said, the reason the NAIC came into existence was to try to create a set of uniform laws across the States for insurance. And those of us who attend the NAIC meetings four times a year see that with great fanfare they pass a model law, and then we all start placing bets on how many States will actually adopt it, and then of those, how many will tweak it their own little way. So there is no model law. There are model ideas, but they never turn into model laws. So it is an intriguing concept. Mr. Gerlach. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you, Mr. Gerlach. The gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Baker. Mr. Baker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Iuppa, I want to review with you and get your opinion concerning the actions the Congress has taken so far in the context of our stated regulatory reform goal. And I say this as a fellow who has spent some time in this effort with Mr. Hunter and others over decades, it seems. State catastrophe funds where the State injects itself as a risk-taker, prices policies below what a normal business venture would say is the actuarial risk, subsidizing it from maybe center-of-the-State consumers who are supporting the on- the-beach consumer with a lower rate. Does that system and any incentives given to promote a State net cat program diminish the enthusiasm of a company like yours of attempting to enter the market? Mr. Iuppa. Well, I think--I mean, from our perspective, and I think that history generally will bear this out, that when it comes to natural catastrophes, that the industry has sufficient capital. It has sufficient expertise to underwrite those risks and pay the claims when they do come in. I think history is a pretty good indicator of that. I think that there is a danger when the--whether it is the Federal Government or the State government begins to interject itself into how the market actually works, that there are going to be problems. Mr. Baker. Well, let me move on to another one. We have considered flood insurance, this Congress, which I would note for the record, even though I am from Louisiana and we have significant interest in the matter, that the reason why we had the wind versus water snafu in the first place is because of the Federal intervention in the flood market. If a lender is going to make a loan in a flood-prone area and there were no flood insurance program, I assure you there would be a flood insurance market in the private sector that would price that risk appropriately. But the remedy that we adopted in this community was not to reform a program which has an $18 billion debt and an actuarial inability to pay that debt off, but merely to add the wind program at an estimated $100 billion a year exposure with no increase in premiums. From a market perspective, does that appear to be on a sound financial basis? Mr. Iuppa. From a taxpayer perspective, I think the answer is no. Mr. Baker. Well, let me move on to terrorism. Maybe we got it right there. You know, we extended the term. We mandated the nuclear/biological/chemical/radiological. We included group life. We lowered the amount the industry has to put into the game. And we increased the potential liability of the taxpayer with a perhaps as long as 15-year exposure; it could be a 10- year. What does that look like from a market perspective? Are we on sound actuarial footing there? Mr. Iuppa. Well, I think that with regard to terrorism, unlike natural catastrophes, we don't know when the terrorist attacks are going to occur. We knew the full magnitude-- Mr. Baker. But you are going to have to offer the NBCR. Mr. Iuppa. Yes. Well-- Mr. Baker. And how are you going to price that, I wonder? Mr. Iuppa. Well, we can still price it from an actuarial perspective. We take into account all the various factors that will go into the products that we put into the marketplace. Mr. Baker. Yes. But do you have an extensive actuarial database for terrorism? Mr. Iuppa. For terrorism, there is no-- Mr. Baker. So it is somewhat of an operational problem? Mr. Iuppa. Well, it is an assumption of risk. Mr. Baker. In our pursuit to simplify insurance regulatory regimes, we have a record already this year which is looking a little on the thin side, wouldn't you say? Mr. Hunter. Are you running for the Senate? Mr. Baker. Don't do that to me. [Laughter] Mr. Baker. No. Up until a few minutes ago, my reputation was in good standing. No. I merely point out that this is going to--if we are about reform, we are going to have to get by a lot of the various stakeholders in the marketplace who have various reasons for the current regulatory regime. And we also have to recognize the consequence of untenable losses in this industry, which, by the way, has the lowest rate of return on equity of any sector in the financial marketplace, contrary to many people's thoughts. People are going to withhold their investment and go elsewhere--London, Dubai, Hong Kong, who knows. I think the facts demonstrate that there is already a flight of capital from this country. And the principal reason why this industry will suffer more than any other is this ham-handed kind of regulatory approach, as opposed to--and I know there are differences of opinion on this matter--allowing markets to function and people to price risk based on their actuarial view of that property in the near term for which the policy contract is obligated. And all of the governmental intervention to the contrary has not served people well. It has only ensured that private risk-takers are less likely to go into those markets, and therefore less competition, therefore higher prices--unless, of course, the State is arbitrarily subsidizing the rates, further complicating the matter. And I know it wasn't a question, but I felt like I needed to get that off my chest. Thank you. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you. Mr. Gilliam. Could I jump in there? Could I go back to point one, State cat funds? I couldn't let that one go. As a company who is looking at entering a new market or staying in an existing market, the presence of a State cat fund is an economic red flag to us because our belief is that if risk-based rates were followed, you would never need a State cat fund. So to us, it is always, look carefully before you enter a market like that because it suggests market dislocation, disruption, and not letting the economic forces of the business of insurance operate the way they were intended to. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you, Mr. Baker. Do you think we are any further along this year than we were 5 years ago? Mr. Baker. Well, the only thing I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, is I know what won't work, if that helps you. [Laughter] Chairman Kanjorski. In some of the comments from the panel, you talked about the relative dysfunction of the existing State system. I think it may have been you, Mr. Gilliam, who talked about that. Do you consider the State system, as it presently exists, to be dysfunctional? Mr. Gilliam. It is functioning. It needs some help. And I will go back to this idea, and I think this is what is driving the optional Federal charter proponents, is that they have to wait 2 years to get their product improved. If a home State could approve the product and the next day it is open for business nationwide, kind of like the driver's license, I think that there would be a tremendous meeting on common ground. Now, when that idea is out there, people will say, that is very dangerous because then you are going to have people going to the State where they think they have the worst regulation, the easiest regulation, they can slip by. So that is the other side of the coin. But I think until--you know, we hear about this globalization. But let's talk about globally within the United States. There is no reason why, if we didn't put our heads together, why can't you have a product approved in your home State and use it immediately, as opposed to waiting 2 years for 34 States to follow suit? I think that is the linchpin of this entire debate, in many areas of regulation. Chairman Kanjorski. Well, I am not an expert in insurance. But I am impressed with the fact there are what, 20 States that don't belong to the compact and have no intent. And they are usually the large States--California and Texas, I believe. Mr. Eiland. We are in. Chairman Kanjorski. You are in now? Mr. Eiland. We are in. We were one of the first. We were the first big State to be in. Chairman Kanjorski. Very good. Is New York in? Mr. Eiland. Not yet. But just on that issue, as you well know, being a legislator, oftentimes when a new idea comes along, you want to take a look at it. And it doesn't always make it through the full session the first time. And so that is one thing that is happening, I mean, that-- Chairman Kanjorski. Well, how long has this new idea been a new idea? Mr. Gilliam. Since 1870. Chairman Kanjorski. 1870? Mr. Eiland. I would say that the model legislation for the interstate compact was completed around 2003 or so. Chairman Kanjorski. I think that was only in reaction to some of the hearings we were beginning to have here in Congress and, you know, a recognition that we actually may act, and almost did. And then they moved along and everyone pulled back, including Mr. Baker, and we said, let's give them a chance. I remember attending several of their conferences. I was highly unimpressed or impressed. I am not sure. I knew they wanted to do something, but I didn't get that sense they were going to accomplish it. Yes? Mr. Iuppa. I just wanted to follow on to Mr. Gilliam's comment on the speed to market. I mean, speed to market is important, but it is not the only issue moving some of us towards an optional Federal charter. I think we really are taking at it from a more holistic view--the kinds of businesses that we market products to; our footprint, whether it is regional, local, national, international, also comes into play as well. Chairman Kanjorski. Do you believe if we did an optional Federal charter, we could have State-by-State enforcement, or would we have to have Federal enforcement? Mr. Iuppa. Well, I think if we had an optional Federal charter and we had a Federal chartering system for those entities that chose to incorporate or establish themselves through that Federal charter, that the Federal court system would be the natural place for enforcement actions with regard to-- Chairman Kanjorski. Well, I am talking more about the regulator now. Why can't we just reverse and say that the attorney general or whomever would be the enforcement officer of the various States, even though it is a Federal charter and it is a violation of the Federal charter or a contended violation, that we expect the attorney general of the State in which it occurred to be the enforcement officer? Do you see a problem with that? Mr. Iuppa. Well, I am not an attorney, but I would imagine there may be some constitutional issues there. And I will defer to the constitutional experts with regard to that. Chairman Kanjorski. Is Ann Coulter in the courtroom? Mr. Iuppa. But I think you are going to end up with the same kind of disparity amongst the States because you will have different levels of enforcement based on that particular individual and that State, even though you may have a uniform product that is--you know, that crosses State lines and so forth. I think that would--I would not suggest necessarily going in that direction, I guess. Chairman Kanjorski. Well, you were a former active person with the NAIC. What is your value and judgment of where they have come so far? Mr. Iuppa. Well, I think, as I said in my testimony, I think tremendous strides have been made in efforts to try and streamline, try and move the ball forward. I think in some areas there has been more success than there has been in others. With regard to financial oversight, we heard about standardized data. Well, there is an annual statement that has over 500,000 standardized data elements in nit. But in other areas, when it comes to things like the product approval, rate approval, the market conduct activities have been very laborious. And I can tell you, speaking firsthand as an active member of that organization, to drive or arrive at a consensus on almost any issue is incredibly difficult, and in some cases impossible. And then even when you do get to that consensus, as others have said, and I think you will also hear--insurance commissioners to a certain degree even say, you know, we get a model passed at the NAIC. Now we have to go back and deal with our State legislatures. And with all due respect to my panel mate here and a gentleman that I consider a friend--we have known each other for a number of years now--each State likes to put its own little twist on the model laws. You look at the financial accreditation program. I was here back in 1988 when that program was being conceived. When that was first conceived, there were actually going to be punitive measures against States that were not accredited. For instance, their financial exams that they did on their Democrat companies were not going to be accepted by the other States. Well, as time went on and you had fewer and fewer States who were unaccredited, the punitive nature of that program became a significant issue, to the point where ultimately there are no punitive measures per se against a State that is not accredited. So, I mean, you have some examples where I think it has worked well. I think as a practical matter, we need to recognize that it is now the 21st Century. Things have changed. You know, I joined this regulatory community as a regulator 20 years ago, and it is a very different industry today than it was even 20 years ago. I think with the pace of change, the fact that this is a financial sector industry, that it is dependent upon capital and capital flows as well as the customer base, that we need to modernize that system for those companies that are operating in that more global national environment. And I think that improvements still need to be made to the State system even for those companies and entities that want to be regulated at the State level or are comfortable with it. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you. I think I have taken my time. Ms. Bachmann, now are you going to join us? Ms. Bachmann. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to be able to ask a question. And I apologize, too, for not being able to hear all of your remarks, although I appreciate having them in written form. I want to thank you for all of the various views that you have been able to present this afternoon. I have heard from a number of organizations. Last Friday I was back in my district, and I met with a large insurance corporation there and heard their views on a Federal charter. And I met with all of my smaller--not all, but I met with many of my smaller insurance companies as well and their views against this. And the issue that I ask each one of them, and the issue that I would ask you to comment on in a general way, would be regarding the issues of competitiveness and prosperity. After all, that is really what we are after. We want to make sure that you succeed wildly. You are a very important part, each one of you, of the financial services industry. We want you to be successful. The large, the small, we want you all to be. Could you answer for me in a very general way--and in many forms, you have been doing this throughout our great discussion this afternoon--but in a general way, could you respond to me how your opinion on this issue would contribute to prosperity and to the issue of competitiveness in the United States? Mr. Felton. I will be glad to tackle that from the life insurance perspective because that is really what I am here to talk about. Life insurance, unlike these other products, is a product that has to be sold. People buy property and casualty insurance. They buy their home insurance. They know they have to have it. And they buy their car insurance. You have to sell life insurance. And if you are in a State that doesn't have a product as competitive as your neighboring State, you are at a disadvantage and you are not going to prosper as much as you might if you were able to sell a different product. So it is tough to make a living in life insurance, and the optional Federal charter would give the agents a chance to sell the same products nationwide. Because right now they can't do that, and that puts them at a competitive disadvantage. Mr. Nutter. I would answer with respect to the reinsurance market. I represent the reinsurance, much of which is written by companies that are offshore, not in the United States, or have U.S. subsidiaries that are offshore. There is no question that the 50-State system is a cumbersome system, if you will, for a company that is managing its capital on a global basis, seeking to write coverage in the United States, often on a multi-State basis. So for our sector of the industry, a single regulator, national or Federal, that would streamline the process of approval, licensing, and solvency oversight, would be a much more efficient system for providing capital, and that capital will help make it a more competitive industry for the insurers and their consumers. Mr. Hunter. I represent consumers, and when you talk about competitiveness and making the insurance industry profitable, we want that. We don't want insolvent insurance companies. But we do not want excessive profits for the property/casualty industry. For example, it is heading for its fourth record in a row, even with Katrina and all those losses. It is clear that what they are paying back to consumers is now down to 50 cents out of every dollar. It has become a very inefficient system. They are making too much money right now. And the market is softening up, so we are going toward now down the slide down the other side of the cycle. But that economic cycle has nothing to do with regulation. Ms. Bachmann. Could I ask as well if you could comment on the argument I hear from the littler guys who say, we don't want the burden of answering to two masters? Mr. Hunter. Well, I don't think they would have to if they were a little guy. They can be State-regulated or Federal- regulated. Under an optional Federal charter, they could choose who to be--they may have to pay for both because you are going to have two systems, one on top of the other. Ms. Bachmann. And again, I am not advocating any particular position here. But one of the arguments that I am getting with the idea of answering to two masters is that the smaller guys are saying, inevitably they will have to answer to two masters. It won't be just one. And if you would just comment. Mr. Hunter. Inevitably, if there is an optional Federal charter, there will only be Federal regulation. Mr. Gilliam. I will jump in as a smaller guy. I don't know if you were here a little earlier, but one of the comments I made is we are a regional insurer. We are in 34 States. We are not across the country. I will put ourselves in the medium category. If we pass an optional Federal charter and leave the current State system unmodernized, it will create a tremendous unlevel playing field because those of us who are familiar and want to stay in the State system will stay in the broken State system, while the big companies go to the Federal system. And it will be so unlevel, at some point we will feel like, well, gosh, do we have to change to a Federal company? And then we will get the game of people jumping back and forth. You know, they will have one company that is Federal and one State, and it is going to be a morass of people jumping back and forth and playing the system. And a lot of companies our size can't afford the cost of jumping back and forth like that. Mr. Iuppa. Yes. I want to go back to your first question about the competitiveness and so forth, and perhaps give you even a different look at it. And I am looking at it from the competitiveness of this country globally. I mentioned earlier that, I mean, we are basically the largest insurance market in the world. Depending on how you tally up the figures, it is either us or the E.U. or Japan. But there are an awful lot of other countries out there right now who are going to be competing for the capital that in the past would necessarily have come into the United States that others are now beating a path to that capital. And that capital is beginning to flow into the emerging markets. I have had the opportunity to work with regulators from emerging markets for several years. And when you talk to these people, one of the first things they look to do is set up an insurance market because they know that you can't grow prosperity, you can't grow a middle class, unless you have an insurance marketplace. As people begin to acquire assets, whether they be commercial assets for small businesses or their personal assets--homes, property, and so forth--where you begin to develop an insurable interest, that is what contributes to the middle class and the prosperity. And I think that we need to have a regulatory system here in the United States that recognizes that there are a variety of players in the insurance marketplace that go down to the single State entities, and in some cases that may only write business as a county mutual, to large multinational companies that do business throughout the world. The needs are going to be different. We want to be sure that capital continues to flow into this market. We want to be sure that the capital that is here has the ability to be used in innovative and creative ways, and provide additional products into the marketplace. And the other thing, as I said, we are now competing with other parts of the world where for the last century, at least for the first three-quarters of it, we weren't. I think that is a dynamic that we can't lose sight of. Mr. Eiland. From a State legislature and legislator perspective, what can we do, I think is your question, on ensuring competitiveness. We can make sure that we have, where we can, a streamlined and efficient regulatory scheme in this country. But by the same token, we can't force uniformity where there is none. And in certain product lines especially, you are going to have wide-ranging products and coverages across the country. And simply having a Federal regulator try to regulate that from Washington, D.C., is not going to work because you are going to have to have Federal regulators in Washington State and in Oregon State and in Rhode Island and everywhere else so that they can see how that particular market is functioning. So the main thing is to make sure that you have an efficient regulatory scheme. By the same token, we also have responsibilities for consumers, to make sure that they get good value for what they are buying, and can afford it in many instances. Ms. Bachmann. Thank you. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much, Ms. Bachmann. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Scott. You had additional questions? Mr. Scott. Yes. Thank you. We have such a distinguished panel that I did not want to let another question that is on my mind go by. And I would like to get your take on this. We are faced with a world view here of our financial services industry. And we are having budget deficits. We are having trade deficits. We are borrowing over $2 trillion from a handful of nations around the world. Our debt is--the sky is the limit. And now I understand we are running deficits with our financial services products in the world. And I would like to ask you two questions about this, if you would care to comment. Why do you believe the United States has consistently run a deficit in insurance services with the rest of the world? That is the first part of the question. If we can get a response as to why is this happening from your point of view. Which leads to the second part of the question, which is-- and I am beginning to get worried that the growing internationalization of our financial services industry may mean that these governments may find it difficult, in isolation from other nations and other jurisdictions, to find a way to deal with their regulatory reform in isolation as opposed to being with other countries and other nations and other international developments. In other words, what I am saying is that we are now an international player. I mean, we have always been, but in a much bigger way. Our indebtedness and our deficits give us an Achilles heel. And I am just wondering, why is this happening, number one? And number two, is it something for us to be worried about in the growing internationalization of the financial services industries, and in terms of these countries finding it difficult to deal with their own regulatory reform in isolation from other countries, other jurisdictions, and other international developments? Mr. Eiland. I will take the first stab at that. It seems to me that the reason we have a trade balance on insurance services is because other countries, the insurers in other countries, especially reinsurers and Lloyds of London, like our regulatory system here. It is predictive. They can come in here. They can insure. They know the system. And then can make money, and have for hundreds of years. And so that is the first. The second is many of our own insurance companies may be reluctant to go to other undeveloped or underdeveloped countries where their system is not as well-established, where their risks may be greater, where they have risks that we are not used to like terrorism. And so there is plenty to do here at home, so they stay here at home. Mr. Scott. I see. Yes? Mr. Iuppa. Yes. I am not sure I can really respond to the first part of your question. But I did want to talk a little bit about sort of these other countries and operating in isolation and so forth. I think one thing to keep in mind is that, as I mentioned in response to some of the earlier questioning, was that there are an awful lot of emerging markets now that have come into being with newly acquired independence and whatever the case may be. And they are all putting together regulatory schemes when it comes to financial services. One of the things that I was able to engage in because of my prior position was I would often hear from some of these countries and ask, why do you have a State system? Why don't you have a single regulator, a Federal regulator? And again, part of it is historical. It is the system we have. But when you look to these countries--and they don't just send people here to the United States to look at our system. They send them to Europe. They send them to Japan, the other developed countries. And they all seem to be going towards a model that is Federal in nature, and even moreso than here, they are increasingly consolidated regulators where you have an entity analogous to the FSA in the U.K., which is a model that has been pointed to and a model that is being moved towards in a lot of these emerging markets. So I think that there is a growing move in that direction. And just with regard to the isolation piece, through the International Association of Insurance Supervisors, it has effectively become the de facto international standard-setter for insurance supervision in the world. It is analogous and on par with the Basel Committee for banking supervision as well as IOSCO for the securities marketplace. There are standards that are being developed there for use in an international basis, and you are beginning to see those standards come out. You are beginning to see those standards be put into effect in various jurisdictions. And the emerging markets in particular are very hungry to adopt those international standards because they see that as a means of legitimizing their economy, legitimizing their regulatory approach. So it goes back to my earlier response to the question on competitiveness. I mean, we are really competing not only amongst ourselves commercially, but we are competing against many other countries in the world today that we didn't have to before. Mr. Nutter. If I could supplement that, if your time permits. I represent the reinsurance market. All of our companies are licensed in the United States. They are probably all licensed in all 50 States. And yet much of the reinsurance is written by companies that have U.S. subsidiaries but are foreign-owned, foreign-domiciled, or written directly offshore. That is exactly what you would want for a country of the risk that this country has, catastrophe risk and other kinds of risk. You do want to spread it throughout the world's capital markets. That is the real function of reinsurance. Depending on the timeframe you look at, there probably is a net inflow of reinsurance payments into the United States largely because of the catastrophe events of 2001, 2004, and 2005, notwithstanding the profitable years of 2006 and probably 2007. Secondly, to Mr. Iuppa's point, we would probably say that a number of other jurisdictions have taken on a more progressive role with respect to regulation of the reinsurance market. The E.U. has created a passport system that is not unlike what we have endorsed. And the sponsors of H.R. 3200 have included a mutual recognition piece that would allow the United States to recognize other countries that have satisfactory regulatory regimes so that U.S. companies can do business in their countries and companies in their countries can do business here on a mutually recognized basis based upon their home country's regulation of those markets. So it is not all bad, if you will, that there may be trade imbalances between countries in our area because it depends on the loss experience of the companies doing business here. Mr. Scott. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Kanjorski. Mr. Baker? Mr. Baker. Just a couple of quick questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Iuppa, speaking as a Zurich official, what would you guesstimate annually is the number of filings for new product approvals that a company of the size of Zurich would engage in on an annual basis in the various insurance domestic jurisdictions? Mr. Iuppa. I am going to imagine that is certainly into the hundreds, and perhaps thousands. And, I mean, as an example, we have a commercial auto policy where the policy itself is probably about 15 or 20 pages long. But along with the basic policy, there is probably about 500 pages of amendatory language in order to take into account all the filings in all the States. Mr. Baker. But is it safe to say that it is several hundred a year from one single company perspective? Mr. Iuppa. Easily. Easily. Mr. Baker. Mr. Eiland, I want to acknowledge the correspondence that the NAIC forwarded to the OFC. I do appreciate it. And just make note of one element of the content of that correspondence with my office, Mr. Chairman. In a prior meeting, I inquired as to the new compact approval process for new product and how was it progressing. And at the time, there was uncertainty about the number of products. In the correspondence, it indicates there were eight filings that were approved. I just wish for the record, Mr. Chairman, to establish that Zurich only has several hundreds of filings annually in the domestic marketplace. One can only imagine it must be literally in the thousands, if not tens of thousands, for the entire industry. And to hold that number up in contrast with the current compact approval process, I think, points to the continuing disparities between where we want to go and where we seem to be. I yield back. I thank you. Chairman Kanjorski. Thank you very much, Mr. Baker. To the panel, I want to thank you all very much. I found it very interesting and very diverse, to say the least. The Chair notes that some of the members may have additional questions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 30 days for members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Before we adjourn, the written statement of the National Association of Insurance and Financial Advisors will be made part of the record of this hearing. Without objection, it is so ordered. Chairman Kanjorski. The panel is dismissed, and this hearing is adjourned. Thank you. [Whereupon, at 4:29 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X October 30, 2007 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]